The BaSSlines (was High Sensitivity Design)

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  • dlneubec
    Super Senior Member
    • Jan 2006
    • 1454

    The BaSSlines (was High Sensitivity Design)

    I’ve posted in Jed’s Tombstone thread how amazed I was by the Bagby/Salk design I heard at the inDIYana event last Saturday. I’ve been doing some concept design for a "value" version of this speaker and wanted to start a thread on it. I’m hoping for sensitivity in the 92db+ range, if possible. I believe Jeff said his design was about 93db.

    Here is what Jeff is using in the Salk design, according to what he told us Saturday:
    12” Lambda TD12H ($259ea.), crossed at around 450hz.
    6.5” PHL 1070 (?) midrange ($159ea.), crossed at 2.7khz
    Morel MDT33 tweeter ($149ea.)
    The TD Series woofers are low distortion, high Xmax, wide bandwidth, bass drivers designed for sealed or vented enclosure applications. The TDH uses a 4 layer flat wire copper coil. They have the highest BL and also highest mass. This allows them to work in smaller vented enclosures and have better low end extension. They make the best pure subwoofer drivers in the series.

    http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=141&products_id= 570

    Jeff indicated that the PHL 1120 should work just as well, but he happened to already have a pair of the 1070’s (I think it was “1070” he mentioned, but it was definitely not the 1120)


    For those who have not seen it, here is the Salk/Bagby design.

    Click image for larger version

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    Goals:
    My goals are to do a similar high sensitivity design, with open baffle mid (or perhaps open back mid as a second choice). The Salk speaker is quite large at 15” wide x 46.5” high and I would like to make a smaller front mass to the design as well (or my wife won’t let it stay in the main listening/HT room). I’m thinking a tapered design so that the mass of the speaker is lower in the box and less intrusive in the room (see mock up below). The concept design I have below has a 76L net woofer enclosure and the size is 16” wide at the bottom, with 5º tapered sides up to a width of 8.5” at the top. Of course, the baffle width on the open baffle mid will have to be sized as needed to work at the intended crossover frequency and I have not even begun to consider that. The height of the speaker is 43” and the depth is about 18” at the bottom. I envision an 8º sloped front baffle on the woofer enclosure, with a vertical open baffle on the mid/tweeter that is separated from the woofer baffle. This arrangement allows the drivers to be approximately time-aligned. I have also attached some preliminary drawings of the speaker(see the attached pdf). Depending on the tweeter chosen, I could possibly do a shallow waveguide mount for it, like I did in my Duo design and as proposed by Zaph for using the D26NC55.

    Drivers:
    The drivers of the Salk/Bagby design run in excess of $1100/pair, as far as I can tell. I would like to reduce that substantially, without losing too much in either sensitivity or sound quality. Here are the possible drivers I’ve come up with to consider.

    Woofers:
    Lambda TD12H 12”: $259
    Ciare 12.00NdW1 12”: $175


    Midrange:
    PHL 1120 6.5”: $159
    B&C 6MDN44: $120
    B&C 8NDL51: $136
    Speaker parts, woofers, drivers and crossovers for replacement or upgrade. A complete line of products for DJ’s, Bands, and Sound Reinforcement. Repair your old speaker systems with Genuine Eminence Parts. A better product for less.


    Tweeters:
    Seas 29TFF/W (H1318), 92.5db: $44
    Peerless HDS 810921, 93db: $78
    Peerless DX25TG05-04, 93.5db: $28
    http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=149&products_id= 1591
    http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=143&products_id= 1744


    It’s unclear on the availability of several of these drivers. I have attempted to make email contact on the Lambda and have not heard anything back. The Ciare is listed as available at Assistance Audio, but I have not confirmed that. The Peerless DX25 and HDS are listed as not in stock at Madisound, though the DX25 appears to be avaialable at PE under the old Vifa name. Below is a graph from some quick modeling in Unibox with the woofers and mids at 200w input. The Ciare is at xmax at this point and the Lambda still has a lot of room to move, however, we are at over 114db spl at this point and for HT you really need a subwoofer to handle below 40hz with either of these drivers. I’m leaning towards the Ciare since it is appears to be comparable in performance, yet would save $168. The PHL mid might be hard to beat. The B&C 8NDL51 seems to be well thought of, but I’m not sure if it can be crossed in the 2.5-2.7khz range needed to work with a dome tweeter at high spl. The 6MDN44 might work, but I have not read of anyone who has used or measured this driver. I’ve not used any of the tweeters listed, but was looking for models with relatively low distortion, but with high sensitivity and these are what I found so far that were less expensive than the Morel. If the drivers selected were the Ciare woofer, PHL mid, and Seas tweeter, the driver cost will have been reduced to about $754/pair, which is a very good savings, if SQ is not compromised to significantly.

    Ok, I’ve presented my thoughts and ideas and I’d like to hear from others what they think of the concept, the drivers or others they might suggest, etc. What do you all think?

    Also, does anyone have any name ideas? I thought immediately of the “PowerTowers”, but I’m ambivalent at this point.

    Click image for larger version

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    This was edited to show the final concept version below:

    Click image for larger version

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    Attached Files
    Last edited by theSven; 19 June 2023, 20:45 Monday. Reason: Update image location
    Dan N.
  • ---k---
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Nov 2005
    • 5202

    #2
    Dan,

    Don't you ever take a break to sit back and enjoy the speakers before moving on to the next pair?

    I don't want to drag your thread down in theory, but what do you think it is with high efficiently speakers that causes them to sound so good? Is it that they don't have to be pushed very hard, and therefore don't get into the range where distortion is an issue?

    I also wonder about the definition of highly efficient. My Khans are ~91db. Stereophile would say that this is above average. People on AVS would say it is average. You're goal is 92db+. You're goal is about the same as my speakers, which you've heard. So, I'm thinking it isn't the efficiency that had your mouth gapping, but the drivers or something else.

    I think this is a very cool project. There has been a lot of talk about mating pro drivers to hifi drivers. I think the concept has lots of merit and benefits. It would be great to understand what makes the pro stuff either really good or really bad.
    - Ryan

    CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
    CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
    CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

    Comment

    • Saurav
      Super Senior Member
      • Dec 2004
      • 1166

      #3
      I've had a cheap version of a similar concept for a few years now:

      Image not available

      Fountek JP3.0, Audax PR170M0, Peerless CSX 10" (forget the exact number). I can't find the photos from the side. The mid and tweeter are on an open baffle, passive LR4 XO @ 4.5K. The woofer is in a sealed enclosure, active LR4 @ 500Hz. Tube amp driving the top (95dB efficient), SS amp on the bottom (around 88dB, I think).

      This was mostly put together with drivers I had (and the XO built with parts I had), so it's kinda ragged. But it definitely proved to me that I liked the open baffle sound. This summer I'm thinking of trying a dipole woofer as well, since I've heard so many good things about that. And use a different mid that'll allow an easier blend with the tweeter.

      I don't want to drag your thread down in theory, but what do you think it is with high efficiently speakers that causes them to sound so good? Is it that they don't have to be pushed very hard, and therefore don't get into the range where distortion is an issue?
      One theory is that they don't get into the excursion regions where power compression becomes an issue. I don't know... I just know what I enjoy, and at multiple audio shows and friends' systems, I've become convinced that small low-efficiency drivers don't give me the sound I like. Something like a big Wilson clone would have the snap and dynamics I want, but that's not happening in my living room (or budget) any time soon.
      Last edited by theSven; 19 June 2023, 20:49 Monday. Reason: Remove broken image link

      Comment

      • dlneubec
        Super Senior Member
        • Jan 2006
        • 1454

        #4
        Hi Ryan,

        I hear you and I'm not planning to start building for awhile. My wife asks the same question. :E These were the first speakers I've heard since I've been into DIY or that I've heard, for that matter, that really stunned me with how effortless and "live" they sounded. In my book, these were simply on a whole other level of performance.

        I assume it is a combination of really good pro drivers, that have a LOT of headroom for a great dynamic range, with a great crossover design and the soundstage and other benefits of an open baffle mid design. Surely the electronics are pushed less to get the sound, which is also a positive. I suspect there are also some benefits to a simpler approach using fewer drivers to accomplish the sensitivity, i.e. basic 3way with 3 drivers versus the more typical Hi-Fi WMTMW approach. There would seem to be considerably less comb filtering an phase match issues with the 3 driver approach. I'm sure there are better speakers out there (perhaps not for the cost, however), but I haven't heard them, so I go with what inspires me to be creative.

        I look at speaker design as a challenging, creative outlet. Something to keep my mind alive and have a passion about. After working for a living for over 30 years, a creative outlet helps keep you sane!

        My HOSS design has almost the same drivers as your Khans and though the direct radtiated energy is down at the listening position and not 91db as typically measured, the total sound radiated into the room would be quite similar to yours. I believe both of these designs were in a top five at Iowa2007 that had less than .5 pts difference between those top five. However, I can tell you, without a question in my mind, that the Salk/Bagby design struck me as stunningly better and not by just a little, IMHO. Maybe they just it all my hot buttons!
        Dan N.

        Comment

        • dlneubec
          Super Senior Member
          • Jan 2006
          • 1454

          #5
          Originally posted by Saurav
          I've had a cheap version of a similar concept for a few years now:

          Image not available

          Fountek JP3.0, Audax PR170M0, Peerless CSX 10" (forget the exact number). I can't find the photos from the side. The mid and tweeter are on an open baffle, passive LR4 XO @ 4.5K. The woofer is in a sealed enclosure, active LR4 @ 500Hz. Tube amp driving the top (95dB efficient), SS amp on the bottom (around 88dB, I think).

          This was mostly put together with drivers I had (and the XO built with parts I had), so it's kinda ragged. But it definitely proved to me that I liked the open baffle sound. This summer I'm thinking of trying a dipole woofer as well, since I've heard so many good things about that. And use a different mid that'll allow an easier blend with the tweeter.

          One theory is that they don't get into the excursion regions where power compression becomes an issue. I don't know... I just know what I enjoy, and at multiple audio shows and friends' systems, I've become convinced that small low-efficiency drivers don't give me the sound I like. Something like a big Wilson clone would have the snap and dynamics I want, but that's not happening in my living room (or budget) any time soon.
          I have a couple of those Audax pro mids that I picked up used for $25ea. that I plan on doing some experimenting with as I get into this concept, but maybe try to cross them closer to where Bagby did.
          Last edited by theSven; 19 June 2023, 20:50 Monday. Reason: Update quote
          Dan N.

          Comment

          • Saurav
            Super Senior Member
            • Dec 2004
            • 1166

            #6
            That would be a much better XO point for that driver. Like I said, I was working with what I had, and I had to choose between stretching the mid or stretching the tweeter, since the Fountek wouldn't be too happy down at 2.5kHz.

            I assume it is a combination of really good pro drivers, that have a LOT of headroom for a great dynamic range
            I've often wondered about that. Everyone runs small-signal tests on their drivers, and we look at frequency response, CSD plots, impedance, all of which helps us pick drivers and design crossovers. But what does that tell us about the "dynamic linearity" (for want of a better term) of the driver? Basically, when a transient comes along that's 20dB above the base signal level, how well does the output track the input? Does anyone test that kind of stuff? Can that behavior be inferred from the low level tests?

            Anyway... good luck with your project. I'm investigating drivers for something similar, but at a lower price point, so I don't have much comment on your choices other than *drool*

            Comment

            • dlneubec
              Super Senior Member
              • Jan 2006
              • 1454

              #7
              Saurav,

              I have found a couple other options that are a little better bargain. For example, the Beyma 10BRO60 is around 91db sensitive and can get up to 110db before reaching xmax, tuned to an F3 of 34hz in a 70l box. I believe it costs $99.

              Put two of the Dayton ST255-8 10" Series 2 Woofers (about 98.5db for 2) in a 75L box and you can get up to 116db before exceeding xmax and they go for about $62 each, though the F3 is in the low 40s.
              Dan N.

              Comment

              • dlneubec
                Super Senior Member
                • Jan 2006
                • 1454

                #8
                I forgot to ask if anyone has any experience with the Ciare drivers, especially the 12.00 NdW1? I know that Jon Marsh was considering the 18" version, I believe, in one of his uber-all-open-baffle designs.
                Dan N.

                Comment

                • Saurav
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Dec 2004
                  • 1166

                  #9
                  Thanks, I'll take a look at those woofers. I want to go dipole on the woofers this time around, and I'll have an SS amp on them, so I'm more concerned about Xmax and Qts than sensitivity. That Beyma looks like it might be better than the Eminence 10"/12" drivers I was running through spreadsheets last night.

                  Comment

                  • JoshK
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2005
                    • 748

                    #10
                    From what I've read the Audax was made by PHL and is a close variant of the 1120. Its half the price and if you have a pair its worth trying out. Beyma has some ~93db dome tweeters that are worth examining too.

                    Comment

                    • fjhuerta
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Jun 2006
                      • 1140

                      #11
                      Dan, did I ever mention your designs are some of the most original and thoughtful out there? Every time you post something, it's hard not to be amazed!
                      Javier Huerta

                      Comment

                      • augerpro
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Aug 2006
                        • 1866

                        #12
                        Cool stuff Dan. Very close to what I'm going to build this summer. One problem I'm having is deciding on the woofer. I have a pair of AE IB15, and a B&C 15NW76 in the mail. I'm also considering an AE TD15H/X as a just slightly lower sensitivity but higher xmax alternative to the 15NW76. The hard part is deciding between those two or the IB15, which has all the right numbers-except sensitivity. Like you I'm doing this to check out the whole pro audio hype. So listening to the Salk speaker do you think the "magic" extends to the bass? In other words, could I cheat and get the cheaper IB15 and still be happy? Or do I just have to accept the more expensive TD15H/X or 15NW76 and use some kind of LT circuit (these will be cardioid alignment)?

                        I think the Ciare is great woofer. Looking at the impedance it looks like they are paying attention to the motor. My only concern is xmax, but like you said it amy be just enough, and crossed to a sub at even 40hz is probably plenty. Within the price constraints I don't think you can go wrong with this woofer.

                        The 6MDN44 is a good choice, although I wonder if the 6NDL38 might be a better sensitivity match to the tweeter? Depending on baffle step and xo point you could probably run this without BSC for the full 92-93dB, which would match both tweeters without padding. Tough call, both nice woofers.

                        I can't recommend the 810921 enough. In fact I've been thinking this tweeter is just screaming for a waveguide. I really think this would be a winner.
                        Last edited by augerpro; 02 May 2008, 21:52 Friday.
                        ~Brandon 8O
                        Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                        Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                        DriverVault
                        Soma Sonus

                        Comment

                        • exojam
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2006
                          • 169

                          #13
                          In open baffle designs like this one, is placement really critical? I ask regards to the speaker needing to be a further distance from the wall in comparison to enclosed designs? Also, when one uses speakers such as these, what do you do for a center channel? Thanks.

                          Comment

                          • dlneubec
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 1454

                            #14
                            Originally posted by fjhuerta
                            Dan, did I ever mention your designs are some of the most original and thoughtful out there? Every time you post something, it's hard not to be amazed!
                            Thanks Javier! I do try hard to be creative and make speakers that have some artistic value as well as auditory value. Not everyones cup of tea, however. :T
                            Dan N.

                            Comment

                            • dlneubec
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Jan 2006
                              • 1454

                              #15
                              Originally posted by augerpro
                              Cool stuff Dan. Very close to what I'm going to build this summer. One problem I'm having is deciding on the woofer. I have a pair of AE IB15, and a B&C 15NW76 in the mail. I'm also considering an AE TD15H as a just slightly lower sensitivity but higher xmax alternative to the 15NW76. The hard part is deciding between those two or the IB15, which has all the right numbers-except sensitivity. Like you I'm doing this to check out the whole pro audio hype. So listening to the Salk speaker do you think the "magic" extends to the bass? In other words, could I cheat and get the cheaper IB15 and still be happy? Or do I just have to accept the more expensive TD15H or 15NW76 and use some kind of LT circuit (these will be cardioid alignment)?

                              I think the Ciare is great woofer. Looking at the impedance it looks like they are paying attention to the motor. My only concern is xmax, but like you said it amy be just enough, and crossed to a sub at even 40hz is probably plenty. Within the price constraints I don't think you can go wrong with this woofer.

                              The 6MDN44 is a good choice, although I wonder if the 6NDL38 might be a better sensitivity match to the tweeter? Depending on baffle step and xo point you could probably run this without BSC for the full 92-93dB, which would match both tweeters without padding. Tough call, both nice woofers.

                              I can't recommend the 810921 enough. In fact I've been thinking this tweeter is just screaming for a waveguide. I really think this would be a winner.
                              Hi Brandon,

                              There seem to be more 15" drivers that will do the job well than there are 12", but there is no way I'd get 15"ers into the living room and keep my wife happy, unless I took the stereo subs out, which I don't think is wise from an HT standpoint.

                              I think either of the B&C 6.5" drivers might work, but I know that the PHL will for sure, so I'm leaning that direction, unless someone else gives a review on how those drivers sound in a hi-fi setup. I still have to give it more thought. Are you still going to use the 8NDL51? I wish they were all round so they weren't such a p.i.t.a. to mount.

                              My approach at this time is to go safely middle ground, somewhere comfortably between the typical hi-fi and hi-spl pro audio, hence the dome tweeter and 92-93db goal. IIRC, you are going solidly pro with a compression driver, big waveguide, etc. correct?

                              On the Ciare, I'll be surprised if 115db from one speaker at 1 meter in a 15'x20' room is not enough, given the output I heard from the Salk/Bagby design in a much larger space. I need to find out if that woofer is still available. PHL says the max spl on the 1120 is 113db, so if that is accurate, they are going to pushed too hard before I reach xmax on the Ciare. I doubt my amp will push them hard enough to do that anyway, unless these end up closer to 4ohms.

                              I don't know what to tell you in regards to the bass. The TD12H sounded great and the whole package was unbelievable to me. I know they had tried unnamed 12" Dayton and JBL drivers in that design at one time and were not happy with it and liked the TD12H much better. I guess you could always biamp the IB15, if you have an extra amp to run the woofers.
                              Dan N.

                              Comment

                              • dlneubec
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Jan 2006
                                • 1454

                                #16
                                Originally posted by exojam
                                In open baffle designs like this one, is placement really critical? I ask regards to the speaker needing to be a further distance from the wall in comparison to enclosed designs? Also, when one uses speakers such as these, what do you do for a center channel? Thanks.
                                As I understand it, they are sensitive to room placement, and especially need some room behind them so first reflections don't reach the listener too soon. However, the nulls they create to the side probably means they can be a little closer to the side walls than typical box speakers.

                                Since the center channel is mostly dialog based, I would assume it should still be the traditional closed box for best results.
                                Dan N.

                                Comment

                                • dlneubec
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Jan 2006
                                  • 1454

                                  #17
                                  Brandon,

                                  I forgot to ask, have you looked at using 2-10's or 2-12's as an alternative to the single 15's?
                                  Dan N.

                                  Comment

                                  • augerpro
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Aug 2006
                                    • 1866

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by dlneubec
                                    Hi Brandon,
                                    I think either of the B&C 6.5" drivers might work, but I know that the PHL will for sure, so I'm leaning that direction, unless someone else gives a review on how those drivers sound in a hi-fi setup. I still have to give it more thought.
                                    Bah! Plenty of PHL designs (and opinions) floating around. But none on the small B&C or 18 Sound drivers. You're the pioneering type Dan, check it out!

                                    Originally posted by dlneubec
                                    Are you still going to use the 8NDL51? I wish they were all round so they weren't such a p.i.t.a. to mount.
                                    Yeah I hear ya. I considered the 10NW64 instead but the frequency response just doesn't do what I need.

                                    Originally posted by dlneubec
                                    My approach at this time is to go safely middle ground, somewhere comfortably between the typical hi-fi and hi-spl pro audio, hence the dome tweeter and 92-93db goal. IIRC, you are going solidly pro with a compression driver, big waveguide, etc. correct?
                                    I'll be using the 8NDL51 mid and DE250 in either the DDS waveguide or a 10" one from Geddes, in an OB. Woofer will be a damped U frame, as I said not sure what I'll use here.


                                    Originally posted by dlneubec
                                    I don't know what to tell you in regards to the bass. The TD12H sounded great and the whole package was unbelievable to me. I know they had tried unnamed 12" Dayton and JBL drivers in that design at one time and were not happy with it and liked the TD12H much better. I guess you could always biamp the IB15, if you have an extra amp to run the woofers.
                                    Hmm. Maybe I will use the pro woofer and live with the increased cost and need to EQ the bass. Bummer. This design is in fact biamped because the W will be actively crossed to TM. So I could use the IB15, but it gets away from the whole idea of checking out the pro audio hype. I have a feeling the IB15 will be used for a later, cheaper version more along the lines of what you are doing.

                                    As far using multiple smaller woofers, yes I considered it. But the cost got quickly out of hand since I was just looking at the smaller versions of the already expensive 15" drivers.
                                    ~Brandon 8O
                                    Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                    Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                    DriverVault
                                    Soma Sonus

                                    Comment

                                    • ---k---
                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                      • Nov 2005
                                      • 5202

                                      #19
                                      Dan,

                                      Do you do any distortion testing of drivers? It would be interesting to see how the pro drivers you end up with compare to some of the better hifi drivers, like the Scans Jed is using. Especially if tested at a little higher voltage than is typically used for testing.
                                      - Ryan

                                      CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                      CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                      CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                      Comment

                                      • Dennis H
                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                        • Aug 2002
                                        • 3791

                                        #20
                                        That's the thing about pro drivers. When they measure distortion, it's usually at something like 110-115 dB (100 watts). Hifi drivers are usually measured at something like 90-96 dB (2-3 watts) and would totally puke if you tried to play them as loud as the pro tests.

                                        Comment

                                        • dlneubec
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Jan 2006
                                          • 1454

                                          #21
                                          I have done a litte distortion testing and have the capability, but have not really spent the time it takes to understand how to do it right. Mark C. has done a test of the PHL 1120 and compared it to two high end hifi drivers, the Seas M15 and the ScanSpeak 8545. I'd say it did quite well in some pretty good company. Here is his summary:

                                          "PHL 1120
                                          For comparison's sake, graphs of the Seas M15 are also shown, and in selected graphs, the SS8545.

                                          Comments
                                          The PHL 1120 did reasonably well. It had strikingly low nonlinear distortion at 850 Hz and reasonable numbers at 400 Hz. Neither did well at 150 Hz. The linear distortion curves are also good. Not as good as the M15, but as good as, or maybe better than the SS8545. Where the PHL excels is sensitivity. I measured a sensitivity of ~95 dB for the PHL. Certainly, if you need the sensitivity, this is a respectable driver. If you don't need the sensitivity, there are other drivers that test better."


                                          Brandon (Augerpro) has also done some testing of various pro mids, such as B&C, EighteenSound, etc. For example, the B&C 6NDL38 had lower distortion figures than the TB w4-1337 and as good as or better than the RS150, IIRC. See the link under his posts above.
                                          Dan N.

                                          Comment

                                          • Dennis H
                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                            • Aug 2002
                                            • 3791

                                            #22
                                            Again, Mark tests at pretty low SPL. I'm not saying the pro drivers necessarily do better at high SPL but I think you need to test up there before you can draw a conclusion.

                                            Comment

                                            • augerpro
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Aug 2006
                                              • 1866

                                              #23
                                              Dan do you have a link to those PHL results?
                                              ~Brandon 8O
                                              Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                              Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                              DriverVault
                                              Soma Sonus

                                              Comment

                                              • tktran
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Jan 2005
                                                • 658

                                                #24
                                                IMHO we will always be KNOCKED over by a high sensitivity design, especially if we are used to typical 85dB/W speakers with only 100W behind them. The amps will be clipping far more often than we know, or expect.

                                                I believe that the reason that Jeff Bagby's design is a refreshing change from others in the DIY circles (apart from the careful XO work) is the big, high sensitivity woofer in a decent sized cabinet for a WMT 3 way. Not subwoofer, not a mid woofer, but a real woofer that can cover 55Hz (A-1) to 440Hz (A-4) with authority.

                                                Each time I come home from a classical concert, I look at my speakers and think "I need speakers WAYYY bigger than this to replicate that kind of dynamic range"

                                                At the listening position our system should be able to play cleanly everything from the quiestest pianissimos (?40dB) to the thundering crescendos (?110dB).

                                                Of course, getting it WAF friendly is another matter.

                                                Comment

                                                • dlneubec
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • Jan 2006
                                                  • 1454

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by augerpro
                                                  Dan do you have a link to those PHL results?
                                                  Yes I do. Here you go.

                                                  PHL 1120
                                                  Dan N.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • dlneubec
                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                    • Jan 2006
                                                    • 1454

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by tktran
                                                    IMHO we will always be KNOCKED over by a high sensitivity design, especially if we are used to typical 85dB/W speakers with only 100W behind them. The amps will be clipping far more often than we know, or expect.

                                                    I believe that the reason that Jeff Bagby's design is a refreshing change from others in the DIY circles (apart from the careful XO work) is the big, high sensitivity woofer in a decent sized cabinet for a WMT 3 way. Not subwoofer, not a mid woofer, but a real woofer that can cover 55Hz (A-1) to 440Hz (A-4) with authority.

                                                    Each time I come home from a classical concert, I look at my speakers and think "I need speakers WAYYY bigger than this to replicate that kind of dynamic range"

                                                    At the listening position our system should be able to play cleanly everything from the quiestest pianissimos (?40dB) to the thundering crescendos (?110dB).

                                                    Of course, getting it WAF friendly is another matter.
                                                    I think you are right and the latter is the real challenge :B
                                                    Dan N.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • dlneubec
                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                      • Jan 2006
                                                      • 1454

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Dennis H
                                                      Again, Mark tests at pretty low SPL. I'm not saying the pro drivers necessarily do better at high SPL but I think you need to test up there before you can draw a conclusion.
                                                      I think you are right Dennis. Push the HiFi drivers close to their thermal limits during high db output and you might see completely different results. The experience I had with Jeff's speakers was nearly the opposite. They sounded great at what I thought was a pretty high level and then they turned them up a bunch more, like a live performance, and there was not a hint of strain that I can recall.
                                                      Dan N.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • dawaro
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Feb 2005
                                                        • 263

                                                        #28
                                                        You might want to shoot Bagby an email about the B&C speakers. IIRC he had onced posted his impressions of one of the B&C drivers. From what I remember he said it was one of the best sounding true mids he had ever heard.
                                                        I am not Dawaro the muslim state in Ethiopia...Just DAvid WAyne ROberts

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Undefinition
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Dec 2006
                                                          • 577

                                                          #29
                                                          Boy this thread exploded in just one day! You must have hit a nerve, Dan!

                                                          I was just looking at your choices of drivers. I don't know how much longer Peerless/V-line/whatever will be making the DX25, but it seems like your best bet right now. Also, as far as midranges go, you might also want to check out Eminence; although B&C certainly has more prestige, Eminence certainly gets the job done in a lot of pro sound speakers.

                                                          I also got one question for you: what is the advantage of doing a "micro-horn-load" of the tweeter (using the roundover bit), as you did on the Duos?

                                                          The design looks very nice! Good luck!
                                                          Paul
                                                          Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
                                                          Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site

                                                          Comment

                                                          • John_E_Janowitz
                                                            Member
                                                            • Jan 2006
                                                            • 65

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by dlneubec
                                                            It’s unclear on the availability of several of these drivers. I have attempted to make email contact on the Lambda and have not heard anything back. The Ciare is listed as available at Assistance Audio, but I have not confirmed that. The Peerless DX25 and HDS are listed as not in stock at Madisound, though the DX25 appears to be avaialable at PE under the old Vifa name. Below is a graph from some quick modeling in Unibox with the woofers and mids at 200w input. The Ciare is at xmax at this point and the Lambda still has a lot of room to move, however, we are at over 114db spl at this point and for HT you really need a subwoofer to handle below 40hz with either of these drivers.
                                                            Hi Dan,

                                                            wow, our web host picked a bad week to have issues. They were down for 2 full days so we had no email or website operational. Once they got back up, emails started coming in as they got through the backups. I spent an extra day trying to fix our forum, online store, and replace all the lost data. Then the flood gates opened up. Jim Salk told me the reaction to the speakers was great and we've had a lot of requests about the Lambda drivers this week. A couple quick things. Purchasing the Lambda woofers in pairs does drop $50 off the total, or $25 per driver. We used to discount more, but our materials costs keep going up and up. We are still currently at the same pricing as Lambda was selling at 7 yrs ago. I've tried to push off any price increases.

                                                            I'd like to link you to a page on the Lambda motor design, but that was unfortunately lost in the server crash. I don't have the files at home other than the original first page as I was testing the style sheet. Here is the link that should be working by mid morning tomorrow as I get to the shop to upload the files again. It just gives an overview of the Lambda motor and what was done to keep distortion low.



                                                            One of the biggest differences is how the copper shorting ring fixes the flux in the gap and how it decreases inductance. We actually have quite a few people mating TD drivers (mainly TDM's) to compression drivers, ribbons like the RAAL, etc in 2way systems up to 2KHz or so. The TD15M for example is quite flat up to 2KHz at as much as 30 degrees off axis and to over 4KHz on axis. As an extreme way to save some money if you plan to have a small sweet spot, you could away with doing a 2 way system with very good results.

                                                            John

                                                            Comment

                                                            • augerpro
                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                              • Aug 2006
                                                              • 1866

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Undefinition
                                                              I don't know how much longer Peerless/V-line/whatever will be making the DX25, but it seems like your best bet right now.
                                                              Paul
                                                              I tried the DX25 with the MCM waveguide:

                                                              Click image for larger version

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                                                              NOT a success. The DX25 has a drop in response in the same area the wg causes a drop. The combination was not good. Now I did not take measurements off axis, so this may have smoothed out, as proper wg's do. But seeing this isn't promising.

                                                              BTW congrats on the reviews of the Aethers!
                                                              Last edited by theSven; 19 June 2023, 20:51 Monday. Reason: Update image location
                                                              ~Brandon 8O
                                                              Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                                              Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                                              DriverVault
                                                              Soma Sonus

                                                              Comment

                                                              • ---k---
                                                                Ultra Senior Member
                                                                • Nov 2005
                                                                • 5202

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by dlneubec
                                                                I think you are right Dennis. Push the HiFi drivers close to their thermal limits during high db output and you might see completely different results. The experience I had with Jeff's speakers was nearly the opposite. They sounded great at what I thought was a pretty high level and then they turned them up a bunch more, like a live performance, and there was not a hint of strain that I can recall.
                                                                Yeah, that is what I was implying. Once you and Jed get your drivers in hand, it would be great if you both could do some distortion testing on them, both at a normal level then at an agreed upon higher than normal.

                                                                Dan, I think what separates your work from many others is the amount of thought and research you put into it. You definitely deserve a big :T. People like you (and many others here) are what makes this a great community. It would have gotten borning long ago without new trails being blazed.
                                                                - Ryan

                                                                CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                                CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                                CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                                Comment

                                                                • ---k---
                                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                                  • Nov 2005
                                                                  • 5202

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Could I get a little crossover education? I'm looking at the frequency response of the PHL driver and an RS180:
                                                                  Click image for larger version

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                                                                  Click image for larger version

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                                                                  The RS180 is pretty flat up to 2-3khz, it makes sense to me how to design for this driver (at least I think I understand it). While the PHL has a big hump from 500hz to 1700hz, but is then fairly flat to ~3k. How do you deal with that big hump in the midrange?
                                                                  Last edited by theSven; 19 June 2023, 20:52 Monday. Reason: Update image location
                                                                  - Ryan

                                                                  CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                                  CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                                  CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • dlneubec
                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                    • Jan 2006
                                                                    • 1454

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by dawaro
                                                                    You might want to shoot Bagby an email about the B&C speakers. IIRC he had onced posted his impressions of one of the B&C drivers. From what I remember he said it was one of the best sounding true mids he had ever heard.
                                                                    I did correspond with Jeff a bit after last Saturday. He said he has no expereince with the B&C drivers, so it must have been something else he posted on. Maybe it was the PHL they ended up using.
                                                                    Dan N.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • dlneubec
                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                      • Jan 2006
                                                                      • 1454

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Undefinition
                                                                      Boy this thread exploded in just one day! You must have hit a nerve, Dan!

                                                                      I was just looking at your choices of drivers. I don't know how much longer Peerless/V-line/whatever will be making the DX25, but it seems like your best bet right now. Also, as far as midranges go, you might also want to check out Eminence; although B&C certainly has more prestige, Eminence certainly gets the job done in a lot of pro sound speakers.

                                                                      I also got one question for you: what is the advantage of doing a "micro-horn-load" of the tweeter (using the roundover bit), as you did on the Duos?

                                                                      The design looks very nice! Good luck!
                                                                      Paul
                                                                      Hi Paul,

                                                                      I'm not a waveguide guru, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. The 1/2" deep waveguide I used in the Duo was the recommended treatment Zaph came up with for the D26NC55 (see his tidbits page).

                                                                      I was able to use it for that driver in the Duo-S and with the Dayton ND28F in the Duo-T. What it does is boost the FR a few db's in the low range of the tweeter, centered around 3khz, IIRC. When that is then equalized out in the crossover design, it means that the tweeter is working less hard at the low end and can potentially be pushed lower without strain or played at higher spl without reaching xmax, etc. Also, distortion levels are reduced by the amount of equalization you do in the crossover. I bigger waveguide porvides some directivity benefits off axis, but I'm not sure if the small 1/2"-3/4" deep application does this and I have not had a chance to look at off axis in the Duo's yet.
                                                                      Dan N.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • dlneubec
                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                        • Jan 2006
                                                                        • 1454

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Ryan,

                                                                        Thanks for the nice comments.

                                                                        I think part of what you are seeing there is that your measurements on the RS180 is a gated farfield measurement and the measurements that Mark has done on the PHL and Seas are nearfield. It is not out of the ordinary for nearfiled and farfield measurements to look quite different. Notice that the Seas mid Mark uses as a comparison has the same broad peak in the same area, only about 1db lower in amplitude.

                                                                        I'll see if I can get some farfield plots from Jeff on the PHL and Lambda, to see what they look like.
                                                                        Dan N.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • dlneubec
                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                          • Jan 2006
                                                                          • 1454

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by John_E_Janowitz
                                                                          Hi Dan,

                                                                          wow, our web host picked a bad week to have issues. They were down for 2 full days so we had no email or website operational. Once they got back up, emails started coming in as they got through the backups. I spent an extra day trying to fix our forum, online store, and replace all the lost data. Then the flood gates opened up. Jim Salk told me the reaction to the speakers was great and we've had a lot of requests about the Lambda drivers this week. A couple quick things. Purchasing the Lambda woofers in pairs does drop $50 off the total, or $25 per driver. We used to discount more, but our materials costs keep going up and up. We are still currently at the same pricing as Lambda was selling at 7 yrs ago. I've tried to push off any price increases.

                                                                          I'd like to link you to a page on the Lambda motor design, but that was unfortunately lost in the server crash. I don't have the files at home other than the original first page as I was testing the style sheet. Here is the link that should be working by mid morning tomorrow as I get to the shop to upload the files again. It just gives an overview of the Lambda motor and what was done to keep distortion low.



                                                                          One of the biggest differences is how the copper shorting ring fixes the flux in the gap and how it decreases inductance. We actually have quite a few people mating TD drivers (mainly TDM's) to compression drivers, ribbons like the RAAL, etc in 2way systems up to 2KHz or so. The TD15M for example is quite flat up to 2KHz at as much as 30 degrees off axis and to over 4KHz on axis. As an extreme way to save some money if you plan to have a small sweet spot, you could away with doing a 2 way system with very good results.

                                                                          John
                                                                          Hi John,

                                                                          I'm glad to hear from you. I was beginning to worry about the ability to get these drivers. I think you have some special drivers there that are pretty unique.

                                                                          I have not been able to find a solid pricing structure on the Lambda's. Can you clear that up for us? What is the cost of two of either the TD12H or the TD10H? Are there any price breaks available for larger purchases, say in the event there was interest in a group buy?

                                                                          I could certainly see a design using the Lambda's and mating them with a compression tweeter in a large waveguide, like Geddes is doing and having a really nice 2-way. That may be a future project, if this one works out well. I was so impressed by the Bagby/Salk speaker that I want to try and replicate that concept first, because I've heard first hand how well it can work.
                                                                          Dan N.

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • John_E_Janowitz
                                                                            Member
                                                                            • Jan 2006
                                                                            • 65

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by dlneubec
                                                                            I have not been able to find a solid pricing structure on the Lambda's. Can you clear that up for us? What is the cost of two of either the TD12H or the TD10H? Are there any price breaks available for larger purchases, say in the event there was interest in a group buy?

                                                                            I could certainly see a design using the Lambda's and mating them with a compression tweeter in a large waveguide, like Geddes is doing and having a really nice 2-way. That may be a future project, if this one works out well. I was so impressed by the Bagby/Salk speaker that I want to try and replicate that concept first, because I've heard first hand how well it can work.
                                                                            Hi Dan,

                                                                            The standard pricing on all Lambda drivers is $279, $259, and $239 for the 15", 12", and 10" respectively. If purchasing a pair there is $50 off the total pair price. This includes the TDM, TDS, TDX, TDH, and the Dipole drivers. There are quite a few VC options for most of these so we custom build these to order. Typically we are running about a 5 day lead time to build, test, and ship right now.

                                                                            The parameters as supplied by Lambda in the past can be found here in the sticky's at the top. We have a few more drivers we need to test and then I'll be getting the full info from our measured parameters up and update the thread. The posted parameters should give a good ballpark now on all the drivers though.



                                                                            John

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • dawaro
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Feb 2005
                                                                              • 263

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by dlneubec
                                                                              I did correspond with Jeff a bit after last Saturday. He said he has no expereince with the B&C drivers, so it must have been something else he posted on. Maybe it was the PHL they ended up using.
                                                                              I guess it was some one else. I tried to search the pe forum but their search function is horrible. Trying to search "b&c" returns all results for "b,c" so just about every post.
                                                                              Maybe it was Mark K, I cant remember.
                                                                              I am not Dawaro the muslim state in Ethiopia...Just DAvid WAyne ROberts

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Rudy Jakubin
                                                                                Member
                                                                                • May 2005
                                                                                • 58

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by dawaro
                                                                                I guess it was some one else. I tried to search the pe forum but their search function is horrible. Trying to search "b&c" returns all results for "b,c" so just about every post.
                                                                                Maybe it was Mark K, I cant remember.

                                                                                IIRC it was one of the Pro Sound guys i.e. Paul O or Bill Fitzmaurice.
                                                                                It was about the time that Paul N. O'Neil finished his facets. A high efficiency 3-way using the Audax as a mid. Since the Audax became unobtanium a search formed for an adequate replacement and then someone responded with that B&C statement. That was way back.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Saurav
                                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                                  • Dec 2004
                                                                                  • 1166

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Madisound is selling the PR170M0 again. The page says AAC (an Audax parts supplier) took over manufacturing some of the Audax drivers.

                                                                                  Free support for loudspeaker projects, sourcing OEM speaker building supplies, and passive crossover design. We sell raw speaker drivers (tweeters, woofers, subwoofer, midrange drivers, full range drivers), speaker kits, amplifiers, capacitors, resistors, and inductors.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Jeff B.
                                                                                    Member
                                                                                    • May 2008
                                                                                    • 32

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by ---k---
                                                                                    Could I get a little crossover education? I'm looking at the frequency response of the PHL driver and an RS180:
                                                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	PHL%201120%20near%20FR.gif Views:	0 Size:	14.2 KB ID:	941059

                                                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	DaytonRS180MLSSS.jpg Views:	0 Size:	47.3 KB ID:	941060

                                                                                    The RS180 is pretty flat up to 2-3khz, it makes sense to me how to design for this driver (at least I think I understand it). While the PHL has a big hump from 500hz to 1700hz, but is then fairly flat to ~3k. How do you deal with that big hump in the midrange?
                                                                                    The measurement you posted for the PHL says it was made at 1" nearfield. measurements above the low bass range are not accurate at this nearfield distance. My PHL's measured nothing like the response shown here. I work with measurements referenced to one meter, which are much more applicable for crossover design. The RS180 measurement on the other hand is at one meter, but then again, it needs to be taken on the baffle to show the baffle effects included so those can be dealt with in the design. I am working with the RS180 right now in a pair of powered studio monitors for a friend's recording studio, and the PHL is much flatter than the RS180 in the range I used it in.

                                                                                    Jeff B.
                                                                                    Last edited by theSven; 19 June 2023, 20:52 Monday. Reason: Update quote

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • Jeff B.
                                                                                      Member
                                                                                      • May 2008
                                                                                      • 32

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Not I...

                                                                                      Originally posted by dawaro
                                                                                      You might want to shoot Bagby an email about the B&C speakers. IIRC he had onced posted his impressions of one of the B&C drivers. From what I remember he said it was one of the best sounding true mids he had ever heard.
                                                                                      Although I have a pair of B&C 6.5" mids coming, I have yet use this brand. The published response looks good on it though.

                                                                                      Jeff B.

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Jeff B.
                                                                                        Member
                                                                                        • May 2008
                                                                                        • 32

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Some comments

                                                                                        Originally posted by dlneubec
                                                                                        I think you are right Dennis. Push the HiFi drivers close to their thermal limits during high db output and you might see completely different results. The experience I had with Jeff's speakers was nearly the opposite. They sounded great at what I thought was a pretty high level and then they turned them up a bunch more, like a live performance, and there was not a hint of strain that I can recall.
                                                                                        Electrovoice used to say....without high efficiency there is no accuracy. I still remember their marketing quote from the 70's. I guess that dates me a little.

                                                                                        Dan, I didn't think we turned them up much at all. The speaker had a lot in reserve and I really wished I could have heard that, but last Saturday was probably not the venue for it.

                                                                                        I have no doubt that you can voice a crossover that will sound very good and balanced. I heard your Soundrounds, so I already know you can do it. Those were wonderful speaker; Jim and I both thought so, as we discussed it later.

                                                                                        I have to jump on John J.'s bandwagon here - the Lambda woofers he is making are very special drivers, capable of doing things that most drivers can not begin to touch. For example their ability to reach deep in the bass with a good Xmax, and at the same time maintain extremely low non-linear distortion values into the midrange are pretty much unprecedented. The 12" I used had the Le of 4" driver and had a flat response on-axis to 2.5kHz. The Lambda will give you bass slam and a low distortion mid that can cross effectively to a dedicated midrange that you will not get with hardly any other woofer. It was very much a part of what you heard last weekend.

                                                                                        I would not be so picky about the tweeter, the Morel MDT33 is one of the best ever made in terms of flat on and off-axis response and low distortion, but there are other tweeters in its league that I would recommend as well.

                                                                                        With the midrange, though, there is a reason why the last two large three-ways I designed (both for Jim by the way) used the PHL rather than something else, and it had to do with the driver's capabilities in the 400 Hz region that set it apart from the rest. There really is a lot of thinking that goes into this sometimes, and Jim and I were willing to go through three woofers before we were happy, Just like I went through three different woofers AND tweeters before I settled on the drivers in my small monitors you heard on Saturday (I can't even begin to tell you how many crossover variants I listened to ;- )

                                                                                        I got your email and I would be glad to coach you along on this project and make some recommendations, but I don't think I should do that in a public forum since the speaker you heard Saturday will be sold by Salk Sound and I need to keep some of the details of that design proprietary. Some specifics I can't share, but some guidance I am willing to give you privately. Of course, I am sure you understand.

                                                                                        Finally, I am tickled pink that you enjoyed the speaker as much as you did, and I am reminded that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Consequently, I am very flattered by all of this attention.

                                                                                        Jeff B.

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • augerpro
                                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                                          • Aug 2006
                                                                                          • 1866

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Jeff what other mids did you use other than the PHL?
                                                                                          ~Brandon 8O
                                                                                          Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                                                                          Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                                                                          DriverVault
                                                                                          Soma Sonus

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