---k---

Edit: See also the Khancenter: http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28262
Edit: See also the In-Khan-Neatos: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=32111

I'm here to announce a new project just getting off the ground. CJD has graciously agreed to help me design a new pair of front speakers. We're currently in the early planning phases. This thread is more of a way for Chris and I to swap info, since our PM boxes are filling up and email access is limited during the day. And hopefully, the design process will go slow enough and I don't wear out Chris's patients by asking lots of questions for me to learn the art of speaker design.

So some of the goals and parameters:

1) I've listened to CJD's big Dayton RS 3-ways a couple of times now and have really enjoyed them. CJD RS 3-ways Unfortunately, these are a little too big for my room. I don't have the depth from the back wall for them. So, I want something with a very similar sound, just a step down.

2) I want an MTM. There have been several threads recently with comments about having more drivers in the midrange where the most music is.

3) I was originally thinking a wwmtm like Chris's. But after seeing Jim's beautiful Statements, I was hooked. (Hence the reason I was so willing to do the SketchUp model for Jim.) So, were going with a WMTMW just too look cool. The only limitation is that I'm going to need to limit the overall height to 55", so that it is visually lower than my 50" TV by a few inches. I think the dimensions are going to end up very similar at 54"x11"x14.5" for around 100L gross.

4) I'm always going to have a sub. So, I don't need a lot of extension. We've agreed upon a crossover in the 50-60hz range. Low Q, sealed RS225 in a 65L box gets us a F3 around 58hz, so this works good.

5) Good off-axis response for a nice wide sweet spot. My room has two recliners on either side of the famous basement pole. The pole is nearly centered on the TV, so my seat is not in the sweet spot.

6) Price for the drivers is ~$350/pr. I'm anticipating a total cost for the project to be around ~$700 - $800/pr. (Correct for when I built them)

7) Something that would be easy to build matching center and surrounds for.
Edit: Matching center design done here: http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28262

So, anyway I think that is everything so far. The current plan is for us to hammer out a design here, then for me to build the box and buy the drivers, drive the boxes up to Chris, Chris will do the testing and refine the crossovers, put together the cross-overs, leave them with Chris for a while to tweak, do some listening together for some final voicing, and them cross my fingers and hope that Chris lets me bring them home rather than keeping himself.

EDIT:

Speakers are done. I'm really enjoying them. They came out perfect. See this post for some listening impressions from the 2007 Iowa DIY:
http://htguide.com/forum/showpost.p...9&postcount=450

Cad Layout

(Use with a little caution. I tend to wing things in the shop.) Note that the tweeter is offset 1/2" and the mids are offset 1/4" from center. 1" round over on the vertical edges, top horizontal edge optional. This is how I built mine. If I had to do it over, I might eliminate the brace below the lower woofer to allow for more crossover placement room. Also not shown in the Cad layout is some feet or stands to lift them up another 1-2" to ear height.

It has been pointed out that the 54" height in the front view does not match the side view. Use 54". Also, the brace heights are approximate.



Pic of Khanspire (w/o drivers) next to CJD's RS 3-ways


More Build Photos


Updated/Final Crossover:





Notice pricing has increased for all the designs in this section of the forum. People should use the BOM's and check with suppliers for current prices
Bill-of-Materials, as of 12/26/08


Upgraded parts highlighted in Yellow and are optional and will make very minor, if any, improvements. You don't have to do all of the upgrades. If you like, you can pick and choose. The really expensive binding posts in the Upgraded are really overkill, but this is what I used.

Please consider buying as much from our forum sponsor as possible. However, I've heard that additional savings can be had by buying some of these parts from http://www.erseaudio.com/ . Their caps are supposedly good.

Woofer (Note the woofers are wired in parallel with reverse polarity)

Mid (Note the mids are wired in series.)

Tweeter




If you build these, please let CJD or I know to make sure you have the most current/correct info.

FAQ:
1. What is the Sensitivity and Ohm rating on these?
-->The design is rated nominally at 4 ohms and 90db sensitivity. The impedance dips a little bit below 4ohms, so a good amp should be considered to get the most out of these. But, I have listened to them in 2-channel mode using a Pioneer 1015TX, and didn't notice any obvious problems (bass was a little less in pronounced, etc. but no protection faults or clipping). YMMV - especially if you drive 5 channels with all 4 ohm rated speakers. But, my Outlaw 7500 really makes them sing! They dynamics and punch is very impressive.

2. Is the roundover required?
-->The mids and tweeter were measured in box, with the roundover in place. So, the crossover does take into account the edge treatment. Some people claim that the roundover doesn't make a difference. However, below is the simulated response of the mids and tweeter. You can see the difference the roundover makes. I think it can be quite a bit from 0" to 1" The difference between 0.75 to 1" is small.



Driver 2 is the tweeter. The other 2 drivers are the mids.

Note that the roundover is only needed on the vertical edges. This is to smooth the mid and tweeter response. The top away is too far to impact these. The woofers don't really benefit from the roundover due to the low frequencies they are playing.

3. What if I want more bass, can I build these ported?
--> Yes. I recommend that you use a 100L enclosure for the woofers, tuned to 24 hz. This is the similar the the Jim Holtz's Statements. The easiest way to increase the box, is to build it 17" deep with all other dimensions remaining the same. The port should be 3" diameter, 4" long with a precision flare at both ends.

BF_Brock built them ported as is very happy with them. See:
http://htguide.com/forum/showthread...04&page=1&pp=35



4. Why did you use both two different dampening materials on the inside (OC703 and PE Sonic Barrier)???
--> I had some OC703 on hand, so I used it. It should be even better than the Sonic Barrier at squashing internal reflections. However, the PE Sonic barrier will work great. Use the best / thickest you can on the back walls. For the budget minded, regular R13 fiberglass will work great. Other materials such as egg create foam, carpet padding, etc. are debated. Well respected people are both in favor and against these materials. I suggest sticking with the fiberglass, Sonic Barrier, Whisper Mat, or something you know to work well. Do a search if you have questions.

5. Can I use better crossover parts?
--> per CJD:


5. How many other people have built the Khanspires?
--> So far, about a dozen. Me, bf_brock, FredT, phisch, RLHornbeck, jkrueger, Crackyflipside, HerrBender, and kirknelson. There are a few others that I've heard rumors of. If anyone else is out there, please step forward so CJD and I can collect royalties. (joke)

Link to Crackyflipside's build thread
Link to RKHornbeck's beautiful Khans with curved cabs

Jkrueger's:

HerrBender's

kirknelson's


6. Can I change the box size?

You can not change the 11" width! You can not change the spacing between the drivers!

You can reduce the depth and make them taller (either adding the extra height above or below the woofers). To keep the volume the same, I recommend: 62"Hx11Wx13"D.

You can't reduce the depth any more than this, or you will not have sufficient space in the tunnel between the woofers.

7. I built these and they sound to bright!
Try experimenting with the stuffing in the mid chamber. It can make a very large difference. I have my walls lined with 1" of OC703 and NO STUFFING. I have found that just a small bit of Acoustic Stuff stuffing in the mid chamber made them sound bright. If you use a different type of insulation, foam, padding, or whatever on the walls you will need to experiment with more or less stuffing to get them to sound right.

Also note, these speakers will never have a laid back or warm sound to them, but they shouldn't sound bright.

8. What do I use for matching surrounds?
Lots of options. It depends on your needs and desires. JonMarsh's Modula MT will work well, especially the in/on-wall version. CJD has put together a crossover for a small MT with the RS150/RS28 that would also work well. MarkK's RS28/RS225 would also work well. And finally, coming Summer 2009, the In-Khan-Neatos. The plan is a RS180/RS150/RS28 in/on-wall 3-way.


9. Can these be used On-Wall behind an Acoustically Transparent Screen?
YES! On-wall is never perfect, but these will work. Phish and Crackflipside are actually doing just that.
CJD recommends some changes to the crossover. This will reduce the bass a little to account for the change in baffle step (maybe you don't like that?) See here:
http://htguide.com/forum/showpost.p...8&postcount=526
Here are Phish's completed speakers. WOW! Note that he centered up the drivers.


10. Should the tweeters be places on the inside or outside??
You should experiment and see what way you like better in your room. CJD recommends placing them on the outside:


11. Electrolytic caps in the woofer? What's up with that?
In the BASIC Bom, I also switched the caps in the woofer circuit to electrolytic to save money. You have to wire the 100uf and 80uf together to get the 180uf speced. This saves about $34 per speaker. I consider this a big enough savings to warrant mentioning.

Discussions about caps get ugly real fast. I really don't know the answer nor do I really care. Zaph and others use electrolytic caps, so they can't be that bad. Some people would argue that they should be used throughout the crossover. The polypropylene I used are in the upgraded BOM.

12. Does this use the original RS28a tweeter with the ferro fluid, or the current version without the ferro fluid?
The Khans were designed with the current version of the RS28a tweeter that does not have the ferrofluid in them. These are better quality tweeters than the original version.

Attached Thumbnails

       

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

WillyD

Cool! Good luck with this. I'll be watching the progress for sure.

Brian Bunge

What do you mean by "I don't have the depth from the back wall for them."?

Are you talking about the distance from the back of the cabinet to the front wall?

---k---

Yep. The face of my current speakers are about 4" in front of the TV. This works well, has WAF, but only leaves about 28" from the face of the baffle to the rear wall. If I remember right, yours and C's speakers are about 28" deep or on-wall speakers.

I'm hoping (maybe a bit naively) that the bsc can be somewhat custom to fit the distance I have them from the wall and the big ugly box about 16" to the side.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

Brian Bunge

Ryan,

My cabinets are 23"D and with some toe-in the outer edge of the cabinet is only 32" from the front wall. Even will full baffle step I don't have boomy bass. I'm sure it does help that there's at least 4' from each speaker to the side walls. If the room wasn't so wide and didn't have the cathedral ceiling it would probably not sound as good this close to the front wall.

With my wife getting yet another promotion it looks like we will probably be moving again within the next 3-6 months so it'll be interesting finding a house with a big enough family room.

cjd

I tried shoe-horning the 3-ways into Ryan's Miata last time he was over, but no luck. They might work out in his room, but it's a tough space to work in and the chance that there's just not adequate space is high enough that it's probably not really worth that chance.

I still think a WWMTMW with the mids and top W open baffle would be nice...

C

Brian Bunge

Now, THAT I would like to see! Would it be 225's for the W's and 150's for the M's?

cjd

Yup. 4ohm RS225 open baffle, pair of 8's monopole, rs150's (not sure which variant, possibly the 4ohm versions would be the ticket)...

Brian Bunge

Sounds interesting. Should I sell my big 3-ways?

cjd

That isn't my decision to make.

If I didn't have this interest in designing/building MORE I'd be very happy with what I have. But, I *do* want to build more, so... I might sneak 'em into the family room when we get our new furniture Thursday and open up room in the living room for something new...

Brian Bunge

Yeah, I hate that feeling! Honestly, anything new for me will have to wait until I know when/where I'm moving. And whatever it happens to end up being will have to be considered a true full range design I imagine.

---k---

You know Chris, you warned me that yahoos might hijack my thread if I started one, I didn't realize it would be you!!!

I guess we need to firm up box size, then I can attempt to sketch out a box layout. Are we firm on 65L for the RS225. What do you recommend for the RS150s?

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

Brian Bunge

I think 65L looks excellent for the 225's. For the 150's I think 20L looks good, although that might be more than you need since I imagine you'll be crossing over somewhere around 200Hz or higher. Of course, that's only 85L in a cabinet that's basically 130L before drivers, bracing, subenclosure etc (assuming 3/4" material with a 1.5" baffle). That's a lot of extra space to take up with bracing, drivers and xo boards. Almost 2ft^3.

You could almost go ported on the 225's, although my favorite alignment for them is 110L tuned to 25Hz and you'd probably be limited to roughly 90L or so to still allow room for the 150's.

EDIT: Sorry if I'm complicating things. Just thought I'd throw out my ideas. I might be one of those yahoos, too!

---k---

Brian, don't worry about being a hijacking yahoo. you're not saying anything Chris and I haven't already talked about. It is probably good to get the discussion in here.

I've gone around in circles a few times whether to choose ported or sealed. I know Jim is using the RS225 in ported in his, and really likes them, so I've been tempted.

Ported is starting to get big. To get ~130L net, I would need to be about 18" deep. Visually, that is getting bulky. I think I'm going for the tall slender column look (I do have to appease 'she who must be obeyed'). Since I'll always have subs, I think sealed makes more sense. Chris is also a big proponent of sealed.

I am a little worried that this might not be enough bass without the subs. It seems silly to build a 3-way that -requires- a sub. But, I believe that there are several people who have built the DM wwmt sealed and are happy. Chris also assures me that I'll get some decent room gain and they'll fill out well.

I should probably knock an inch or so off the back or so. I'll be using 3/4" BB Ply for the sides and 1.5" for the front. So, 54"x12"x14" is 106L gross.

Just for reference, attached are some pics of where these will be located.

Attached Thumbnails

       

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

Brian Bunge

Ryan,

I think that those dims makes more sense. You can make the mid-woofer enclosure whatever size you need, add the appropriate bracing throughout the cabinet, and then if there's a little bit more than 65L left over for the woofers you're still in good shape.

I'm also a big proponent of sealed. If you look at my system all my speakers are sealed (or will be if I ever finish them). I've got the big ass 3-ways, Chris' xo version of the WTMW center that's sealed, a pair of sealed RS150/RS28a TM's waiting to be finished and a dual RS 15" HO sub that's yet to be built that'll be sealed. So I feel ya when you're talking about going with sealed speakers.

Jim Holtz

Hi Ryan,

It looks like a fun project.

I thought I should clarify that I too have been a very strong sealed bass proponent and built the RS 3-ways in a sealed enclosure. A .7 alignment will be right at 54 liters for 2 RS225's. Curt and I used 100 liters ported for the Statements. F3 sealed with ES225's will be right at 50 Hz. In the 100 liter cabinet ported F3 came out at 32 Hz.

You should try open back on the mids. It really opens up the sound. Chris and I experiented at his house by positioning the Statements about 10" from the rear wall and the soundstage was still very large and full. 1 1/2' - 2' as designed did work better but close to the wall didn't destroy the sound stage as I thought it would.

Jim

---k---

CJD has suggested a couple of time open baffle and/or open back mids. I think for this project, my first DIY speaker project, I think I want to go with a known thing. We'll save open backs for the next project.

So, I take it that the sealed wwmt was plenty of bass then.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

cjd

So, I think once a crossover is in place, closer to 90L sealed will be preferred. Series impedance sure can muck with box alignments.

Jim only has open back upper midrange.

C

Jim Holtz

Hi Chris,

All of the Statements mids are open back or transmission line, depending on your terminology. The RS225's are ported.

What kind of alignment are you shooting for in a 90 liter sealed enclosure? Is this a single or dual woofer design?

Jim

cjd

Dual woofer (8ohm in parallel) with Q around .7, perhaps as low as .6 - it's a little bit of a crap shoot (with good odds though) since I won't really know what inductors will be used, thus exactly what kind of additional series impedance the woofers will have in front of them.

And, the mid drivers are open back yes... but, to use my favorite example instrument, they switch from open back to monopole somewhere in the violin's range - and that's the "soprano" of the stringed instrument family. They'll make that transition in the core vocal range too. It's commentary I make purely in an attempt at light humor, not as any kind of serious criticism. But it's also true. I can not, of course, weigh in on whether it matters.

C

Jim Holtz

Hi Chris,

No worries, I didn't take it as criticism at all. I'm assuming you're referring to the fact that the transmission line is lined with foam which would absorb higher frequencies, correct? I'm not sure where that actually happens but considering the W4's are crossed close to 4K on the top, they're carrying a lot of the load normally taken by the tweeter.

I don't know if that's good or bad but I can attest to the fact that it sounds great.

OK, no more hi-jacking your thread. I'm looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with.

Jim

cjd

Nah, I'm talking about the lower frequency end of things. Violin just barely stretches up to 4kHz, but down to ~196Hz.

---k---

90L??? I guess we're back up to 16" deep. :rolleyes: I'm trusting you on this. But, if possible: the smaller and narrower the better.

I know I said that I was willing to go through a 6 mo design cycle, but man I'm itching to cut some wood. I was at the hardwood store yesterday buying some wood for a mirror, but the BB ply was calling out to me. (it is 60"x60" sheets btw. I don't know what I was thinking the other day.)

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

cjd

So, I think your 14" depth will net ~80L for the 225's or so, and that should be quite workable.

C

---k---

So, I guess I should be buying some wood this weekend?

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

cjd

Iiiif that's whatcha want to do, sure!

C

---k---

I'll be over that way this weekend, so I'll pick up 2 sheets. Though, it will likely take me a month or so to get the boxes done.

I'll see if I can make some box layout sketches and cut diagrams done this week. I'll likely just take your 3-way drawing and scale it down and move some things around. I guess we're comfortable with ~80/20/10L for the RS225/RS150/tweeter, bracing, etc. = ~110L total. Maybe need a little more for bracing? And, no need to wait on any of the crossover work to make the box sizes, right?

Have you had any more thoughts about the edges? I know you were thinking about 1" roundover. Currently, I own a 3/4 and a 1 1/4" roundover bit. I'm not opposed to buying a new bit. In BSD, 1 1/4 looks better to me (of course), how significant it is verses overkill I can't say. The downside to 1 1/4" would be that 3/4" would let me be about 1" narrower than 1 1/4".

Also, roundover appears to be significantly better to me than a chamfer. I thought that I had read the opposite? I know you used chamfer on your 3-ways.

I know you're busy at work with the beta website launching, so if you don't have time right now, that's okay. I _should_ be really busy with work too.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

cjd

So, basically NO volume is needed for the tweeter. We really just want to make sure it's not a potential leak spot, etc. There are a few ways of doing this.

No more than 15L is needed for the RS150's really, including room for drivers. Maybe 16L.

So plenty of room for the woofers to be happy.

1 1/4" roundover will work on a 12" wide box just fine - actually will be quite good. 8 3/4" on the RS225's, so that puts it at 11.25 when you add 8.75 + 1.25 + 1.25 so even a little wiggle room. You could slim it up a bit to 11.25 (you *could* do 1.25" roundover on 11" width, it won't really cause a problem with the cutouts, but you'll need something to support the router across the woofer-hole region, or do the roundover before you do the driver recesses) Are you going to be doubling up on the baffle? (I would... )

Chamfer is different. You get more small-scale diffraction wobbles but generally less of a dramatic edge signature. Brian chose the chamfer.

For boxes this big, consider snagging a dado bit for the router and use it for the braces and mid-box. Kind-of makes putting the whole thing together a little bit simpler.

We've launched, so I have some moments to cheer and do nothing at all. Today was actually "stand by just in case" and I didn't get called in (I did on Sat & Sun tho). Even had our first paying customer(s) and sales call. Beta only, 5% of users from paid Google ads only for now. Ramping up over the next month. For anyone that doesn't know, I work at one of the big 3 travel websites. This is a ground-up re-architecture, with launch happening for one of our EU brands (rather, THE EU brand for just one country, roll-out to other countries to follow fairly quickly I think). Over 18 months of work, lots of goodies. Fun stuff. Really cool stuff if you're into the technical stuff.

C

---k---

Roundover or Chamfer. Humm.... Doesn't sound like it is really enough to worry about. I think I should ask my finishing committee. I'll let you know what she says.

I was thinking I would do the roundover on the table before the on the table before the baffle gets mounted. I'll just have to make sure I'm perfect on my width, since I won't be able to flush trim.

Will the top edge need a 1 1/4? On my sub, I did the tall vertical sides with the 1 1/4 and all the other sides with 3/4. Looks good to me.

Good call on the Dado blade. That or I'll get a plywood bit for the router.

I knew you said it was a beta launch on Saturday, but I did visit your website anyway today to see if I might notice a difference. nope.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

cjd

Plywood bit for the router, yeah. For panels this size, don't try the dado blade. I did, wish I'd gone the router way.

You probably visited the wrong site. Final cut was Saturday, actual launch was today. Went "live" (but not available or linked anywhere but some secret ways while they tested some stuff) at 7am today, went full live 4pm today for those select users that do the right things and happen to end up there.

Top can be 3/4. Mess with it in the sim, you can set different roundover sizes.

C

---k---

Chamfer is out. Roundover in.

I figured I was visiting the wrong site, but I looked anyway.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

---k---

C,
I started sketching out the box layout. I noticed that you have the RS225 and RS150s touching on the front baffle. I don't have enough faith in my ability to layout the baffle with them this close. Think we can get a little space in there? 1/2" between them? It looks like you already got about 1/4" between the 150's and the RS28. - Little tight for my faith in my cutting skills.

You going to get me in trouble with the wife and make me give up another inch in height? That or the baffles will need to travel to get cut.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

cjd

Oh yeah, a little more space is fine. 1/8" is a surprising amount of "working" space, but more is OK.

Can't really do 100% proper layout in BDS you know?

C

---k---

Yeah, I have to sketch things out on paper to catch all the little things that might cause me trouble. For some reason when I use CAD, my brain sort of disconnects from what I'm drawing.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.