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12-10-2007, 03:13 PM
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#1 (1) |
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DA Khancenter - a RS180/RS150/RS28A Center
Notice pricing has increased for all the designs in this section of the forum. People should use the BOM's and check with suppliers for current prices
It is finished.... Note: This post has been updated after the build was complete. However, if you build this, please let me or CJD know, so we can make sure you have the most current info and to fill in any details I may have left out. This is a center design to match the Khanspire RS225/R150/RS28 WMTMW designed by CJD. The desire is to have a center channel that will fit into my entertainment/shelving unit seen above. I considered a couple of the existing center designs, including Jon's Modula NeoCC and the RS225/RS150 WMTW center with CJD's crossover. The RS WMTW center wouldn't fit. It is both too tall and too wide. I made several sketches to see if I could make it work, but no go. It was very tempting to build Jon's Modula NeoCC. It was appealing on several fronts, but it was a bit expensive, the RS180 version isn't done yet, its ported, and it changed both the mid and the tweeter from the Khan's, so voicing could be slightly different. Because it is going to be placed on a shelf, and against a wall, it can't be ported out the rear. To match the Khans, it is going to be sealed and expected to cross to a sub. Ideally, the RS180s sealed should be crossed ~80hz, while the Khanspires should be crossed at 50hz. This could cause some issues, but newer receivers/processors (Like Outlaws) are allowing different crossovers for the center from the mains. (Building a ported version wouldn't be an issue though if others like.) CJD used real measurement taken with the drivers in the box to design the crossover. Please note the design is intended to be used above or below a TV set. If you place the speaker away from a TV, it will sound thin due to having less BSC. Size: 10.875"Hx23.5"Wx19"D Sealed Enclosure Woofer: RS180-8 Shielded Mid: RS150-8 Shielded Tweeter: RS28A Cost of Drivers: $141. Cost of Crossover: $138 BOM, as of 1/8/2008: Drivers: Part Number Description Qty. Price Ext. Price 295-362 Dayton RS150S-8 6" Reference Shielded W .. 2 $32.14 $32.14 295-364 Dayton RS180S-8 7" Reference Shielded W .. 1 $34.96 $69.92 275-130 Dayton RS28A-4 1-1/8" Aluminum Dome Twe .. 1 $48.65 $48.65 Subtotal: $150.71 Here is what I got for the better crossover: Part Number In Stock Description Qty. Price Ext. Price Remove 004-10 Yes Dayton DNR-10 10 Ohm 10W Non-Inductive .. $1.25 $1.25 027-410 Yes Dayton DMPC-1.0 1.0uF 250V Polypropylen .. $1.06 $1.06 027-414 Yes Dayton DMPC-2.0 2.0uF 250V Polypropylen .. $1.42 $1.42 027-421 Yes Dayton DMPC-4.0 4.0uF 250V Polypropylen .. $1.92 $3.84 027-424 Yes Dayton DMPC-6.8 6.8uF 250V Polypropylen .. $2.53 $2.53 027-428 Yes Dayton DMPC-10 10uF 250V Polypropylene .. $3.75 $15.00 027-438 Yes Dayton DMPC-25 25uF 250V Polypropylene .. $6.58 $13.16 005-2.5 Yes Mills 2.5 Ohm 12W Non-Inductive Resisto .. $3.50 $3.50 255-210 Yes Jantzen 0.20mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor .. $3.26 $3.26 255-214 Yes Jantzen 0.25mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor .. $4.07 $4.07 255-238 Yes Jantzen 0.70mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor .. $6.28 $6.28 255-246 Yes Jantzen 0.90mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor .. $7.16 $7.16 255-272 Yes Jantzen 2.7mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor .. $11.49 $11.49 255-294 No Jantzen 10mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor .. $32.04 $32.04 027-443 Yes Dayton DMPC-50 50uF 250V Polypropylene .. $11.38 $11.38 027-447 Yes Dayton DMPC-100 100uF 250V Polypropylen .. $21.00 $21.00 Subtotal: $138.44 Make sure you really check those baffle dimensions prior to building. I tend to wing things in the garage. Note: 1) The RS180s are wired in parallel. 2) The RS180s are wired with reverse polarity. 3) Solid 4 ohm design, with some regions of the impedance dipping down to 3.5 ohms. FAQ 1. Does it have to be so deep? No. It can be built shallower. 2. I Want BIGGER! For those that wish to have a larger center channel than the Khancenter to match their Khans, a good alternative would be CJD's version of the RS225 WT/MW. Dennis Murphy originally took the in-box driver measurements and then shared the data (there . Curt Campbell, CJD and Jon Marsh all modeled and posted crossovers using these measurements. Each takes a little different approach. Brian Bunge built CJD's version and said that it matched CJD's large RS 3-ways very well, so it should match the Khans well also. I believe that there have been a few other builds also. This design really only varies in the size of the woofers. The larger RS225 will give you a little bit deeper extension and some more head room. It is a little shallower, but that is only because I built my Khanceter deeper than needed. The crossover is a little bit more complex (I don't think CJD had anyone building it at the time, so there weren't cost constraints.  ). This design is intended to be place close to the wall, where a normal center channel is placed, but not necessarily directly under/over a tv where you would get more of an infinity baffle loading. It is a solid 3 ohm design and will need a decent amp. Receivers probably shouldn't apply. Note, the polarity on the mids and tweeter is reversed. The crossover only shows one woofer, but there are two and they should be wired in parallel. Where two caps have the same ID, they should be tied together in parallel to get the value shown in the crossover.
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-Ryan Small Speakers Suck!
The Sietecerocero Project! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW Last edited by ---k--- : 06-28-2010 at 06:01 PM. |
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12-10-2007, 03:46 PM
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#2 (2) |
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You might want to correct your spelling there... I assume it's not "Khanceter" but "Khancenter"
Also, what's the RS145? |
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12-10-2007, 04:07 PM
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#3 (3) |
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ooh crap... I'm tired. I was headed to O'hare this morning by 5:00 a.m.. Unfortunately, after being delayed for an hour; we boarded, got in the air, then had to turn around and come back because OKC was completely shut down. So here I am.
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12-15-2007, 04:36 PM
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#4 (4) |
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Spent some time in the garage today adding some braces and routing out the back of the RS150 hole. Starting to come together. With any luck, the box will be done tomorrow.
A couple of notes: The box is big! Probably could have made it shallower, but what fun is that? The holes in the bottom braces are for crossover tie downs. I expect the crossovers to sit on these braces. The last picture shows how close I got the RS28 to the RS150, and how little edge distance is left. In fact, I got them a hair to close and will need to trim about 1/8 off the RS28. |
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12-16-2007, 06:57 PM
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#5 (5) |
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The inside has been lined with Owen Corning 703 rigid fiberglass. 2" on the back surfaces, 1" everywhere else.
The baffle is currently awaiting the glue to dry. I'll still need to trim the edges up and put a 1/4" roundover on the front. If CJD is around on Saturday, it is all his. |
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12-16-2007, 10:31 PM
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#6 (6) |
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Crap!
The baffle didn't fit just quite right. I think my top and bottom weren't cut perfectly straight causing one of the corners not to fit just right. I did some sanding to get it better, and was able to clamp it down enough to close the gap. Then, I glued it up and clamped it for about four hours. I needed to get the cars back in the garage, so I had to take the clamps off and bring it in the house. After about five minutes in the house, I heard: "POP!". The corner had popped free. -CRAP!- The garage was over 40 degrees. I'm not sure if the glue just didn't have enough time to gain full strength, or it was temperature movement. Joys of an unheated garage. I can probably saw the front free on the table saw and then try again - Seems I could screw it up even more though. I'm also thinking that if I can get my hands on some low viscosity epoxy then I can just fill the gap. Any better ideas? |
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12-17-2007, 09:11 AM
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#7 (7) | |
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Quote:
I have found Bondo to work quited well for filling holes and gaps, but you don't want to use that in your house. I'm just finishing up my center channel with curved sides and used Bondo to fill the saw kerf cuts that I used to allow the sides to bend. Seems to have worked quite well. I'm building Rick Craig's 35CC center channel. I chose it because it uses the RS180's and a Seas 22TAF/G tweeter which should match my RS225's and the 27TBFC tweeter fairly well. It also uses the Morel MDM55, which may not match my RS150's real well, but hopefully it will provide very good off axis response. I know we are not supposed to discuss speaker kits, so I won't say anymore about the kit. I had planned on building Jon's Modula NeoCC, I even bought all the drivers for it, but we bought a new LCD TV for Christmas and I wanted to have a better center channel to go with it so I decided to purchase the kit so that it would be ready in time for Christmas. If Chris does as good of a job on the crossover for the center as he did on your Khanspires, you are going to have a really nice setup. What are you using for surrounds? Brian |
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12-17-2007, 09:43 AM
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#8 (8) |
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Ryan, once in a while I'll get a little aggressive with the sander and not have a flat surface to glue to. When this happens, I use polyurethane glue, the stuff that comes in tubes. It will expand up to 1/4 and fill the gaps without having to clamp things down so tight that they aren't flat anymore.
Just lay the baffle on dry and mark all your spots where there is a gap. Lay down a nice bead of glue and clamp it 1st where it lays flush. Any glue that squezes out, use your finger to smooth it into the gap then clamp that spot, but only tight enough to keep the glue from pushing out the baffle when it expands. You don't want to put it tight enough to close up the gap. |
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12-17-2007, 12:19 PM
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#9 (9) |
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Ryan,
I'm with Mike on the polyurethane stuff. I just finished building a chest of drawers and at one point, had glued up a drawer (with poly), clamped it, then did one last measurement to make sure the width was correct. ARRRGGGGHHHH.......  I had used 5/8" melamine particle board for the sides instead of the 1/2" I originally planned to use, and after cutting 1/4" rabbets for the bottom and ends, the drawers ended up being 1/4" too wide.  So I ripped it apart and re-sawed it, then glued the fractured end back on with poly. The gaps filled fine, and even provided a better substrate (than particle board) to screw into when installing the Blum rollers.  If you're going to building more enclosures, it's worth getting polyurethane in a cartridge tube. It's cheaper, and lasts way longer than in a bottle, because moist air doesn't get in and "prematurely cure" the remaining glue. BTW, Just make sure you clean everything with paint thinner before the polyurethane cures.  HTH, ~Bruce
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12-17-2007, 05:16 PM
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#10 (10) |
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Where do you guys get the polyurethane in a tube? I mean is it in with the caulking at the likes of Home Depot and if so what brands have you seen? Does it work just like the "Gorrila" glue or similar glues you find at the woodworking stores? or is it slightly different?
Brian Walter |
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12-17-2007, 05:51 PM
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#11 (11) | |
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Quote:
There are poly glues = Gorilla glue, and poly caulks. Both are sold in the section of the big box stores that have glue, tape and caulk.
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IB subwoofer FAQ page ThomasW: curmudgeon in training, putting the no in innovation |
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12-17-2007, 07:13 PM
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#12 (12) | |
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Quote:
What Thomas said. It's usually in the same area as Liquid Nails and construction adhesive. |
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12-17-2007, 10:11 PM
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#13 (13) | |
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Quote:
Here's the product found at HD or any other big box outlet.  The 28oz size will do ya just fine. *Hint: Stick a long (3") nail or screw in the nozzle to store the tube after using it. It's easy to pull out when you need to use the glue the next time. ~Bruce
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12-18-2007, 09:10 AM
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#14 (14) |
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I used PL-Polyurethane Construction Adhesive once to glue down retaining wall blocks and it seemed to work quite well, but I don't think it expands as Mike mentions. Also, I don't think the stuff in a bottle (i.e. Gorilla Glue) is the same as the construction adhesive in a tube. While they are both polyurethane based and glue things together, I think that's about where the similarity ends. Their intended uses are considerably different and not what I would call interchangeable.
I do agree that using the construction adhesive to span a gap might work ok, but I would probably keep the construction adhesive below the finished surface and use something like Bondo to smooth out or cover the gap. I suspect the joint between construction adhesive and MDF or plywood would show up more than a properly feathered layer of Bondo. Brian Walter |
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12-18-2007, 12:00 PM
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#15 (15) | |
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Quote:
Brian, Good point about doing a top layer of Bondo. Because poly "foams", there are voids that need to be filled after sanding. From what I've seen, after fairly extensive use of polyurethane, Gorilla Glue has a lower viscosity than PL Construction poly. And that's where PL has a great advantage when assembling cases - it stays put during assembly. The PL does expand ~50% (depending on the amount of heat and moisture while it's curing). I've discovered that leaving a glued-up enclosure for several days in a hot/warm environment stabilizes the glue-lines, reducing the chances of "show-through". IIRC, Aaron Hero built a "heater" to duct hot air into his finished speakers for several days to "cook" them. Even after doing all that, Bondo is your friend, if a great finish is what you're aiming for. ~Bruce
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12-18-2007, 12:39 PM
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#16 (16) |
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There's a leveling compound that the pros use after Bondo. I lost the link to it but I'll look around to see if I can find it...
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12-18-2007, 09:29 PM
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#17 (17) | |
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Quote:
I think it's called honey. Also. Pl poly does expand at least by 50% if not more. I used it to put "Project Overkill" together. Mike
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Call me "MIKE" "PROJECT OVERKILL"  -WWMTMSS- "PROJECT OVERKILL" is now the "mini-me's" CLICK HERE TO SEE PROJECT OVERKILL CLICK HERE TO SEE ALL MY BUILD PICS "PROJECT OVERKILL" IS GOING UNDER THE KNIFE. "mini-me's !! Dual sealed 18" Mach-5 ixl 18.4 subs |
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12-18-2007, 10:19 PM
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#18 (18) |
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We're about at that point where I have more info than I can ask for. Once I get home, I'll have to give it a try. Honestly, I'm most concerned about how I'll get the existing baffle free... and when am I going to have time to get it all done and take the box up to CJD.
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12-19-2007, 10:52 AM
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#19 (19) |
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sledge hammer and a chisel...
C |
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12-22-2007, 12:40 PM
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#20 (20) | |
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Quote:
Screw driver and rubber mallet. I got the baffle cut off and reglued. I went with the PL Polyurethane glue in a tube. I still had some gaps after cutting the baffle free. I put a big, thick layer on and let it squeeze out the the edges. It did expand a little, but not much. It must have a lot of solids in it as filler, and I like that. Rightfully or wrongly, I just don't like polyurethane glue like gorilla glue. I just look at how it expands and think that the open cell foaming glue left behind can't be air tight and strong in gaps. It is being transported up to CJD this afternoon, but I think my crossover is low on the priority list. Here is what it looks like at the moment. |
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12-29-2007, 11:15 AM
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#21 (21) |
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Hello Ryan,
What is the depth of your inner chamber? I will go with 12" baffle height to avoid the overlap. Thanks, Steve |
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12-29-2007, 11:59 AM
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#22 (22) |
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I've used Bondo before and know it is quite popular, however I recommend another approach. I mix TitebondII and MDF sawdust (sifted) 50/50 by volume and use it to fill gaps if necessary. I find that the bond strength is still pretty good and it is MUCH easier to work with (i.e., sanding) after it sets than Bondo is. I keep a container of MDF around just for this reason and I never seem to be in short supply of MDF dust...
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12-29-2007, 05:34 PM
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#23 (23) | |
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Quote:
The mid chamber is 6" deep - thats 6" from the interior face of the baffle to the interior face of the back of the chamber. I hope that makes sense. I don't think it is really that critical. The mid doesn't need much. For the height, you don't have to increase the height - just lay it out better than I did. Really, with just a 1/4" roundover on the edges, there is enough room. Though, because this is being designed to shove into an entertainment center, I don't think the baffle dimensions will be as critical, so increasing the height shouldn't be a problem. I believe that CJD is planing on doing the testing with plywood over the top of the speaker to simulate the TV. I'll let him clarify further on bigger baffle dimensions and roundovers. Just layout the driver mid and tweeter as tight together as possible. My desktop computer with AutoCAD died this morning, so anything other than hand sketches is a ways off. Though looking at my other drawings, I'm not sure it helps.  If you need anything else, let me know. |
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12-29-2007, 05:37 PM
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#24 (24) | |
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Quote:
Yep, I've done this for some small gaps. Worked well. That is one of the great things about wood working - Lots of options for fixing mistakes. Since I cut my baffle free (the new gap was that bad), it was pretty easy to reglue. |
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01-25-2008, 11:55 AM
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#25 (25) |
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Bump!
(I'm trying very hard to be patient and not to say, "You done yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" ) |
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01-25-2008, 02:46 PM
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#26 (26) |
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I was wondering when you'd get around to that.
New screen is up - man, what a huuuge pain. Speakers are in boxes, in the wall. Measurement gear is out and we should get data for your speaker at long last! C |
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01-25-2008, 03:05 PM
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#27 (27) |
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Cool. Sounds like you are making good progress on your own stuff. That's good. You should update us all with pictures of your progress.
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01-30-2008, 03:20 AM
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#28 (28) |
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Looking forward to see how this turns out. I have the drivers to do this WTMW center (RS28, RS150, and RS180; all sheilded ). I have struggled to find a design using RS180s as the "W"s. I am in the same boat, RS225 are to big.
Any more dimensions on the box? Location of speakers on the baffle? Can't wait for the crossover. |
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01-30-2008, 09:13 AM
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#29 (29) |
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I made some ugly sketches for myself to make sure everything would fit, then I just went out into the garage and winged it.
The box dimensions are set in the first post. That is what I built. If you need a little shallower of a box, it shouldn't be a problem. Like I said, I winged the baffle layout as I cut. It is really pretty simple though, center the RS28 and RS150 horizontally on the baffle, squeezing them together as close as you can. The RS180s are centered in vertically in the remaining space. IIRC, it works out to be about 3/4" between the RS180 and RS150, as well as the side. I'll see if I can whip a sketch up tonight. CJD was supposedly measuring this past weekend, so I'm expecting a crossover this week or next. I likely won't be able to pick the box up from him and build the crossover until the 16th. |
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01-30-2008, 03:17 PM
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#30 (30) |
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Hey, there is an advantage to being sick after all, I suppose. All weekend, tried work Monday, still ache like crazy today so I'm home.
2 options, the only question being: how much do you want your RS150 breakup attenuated? Reverse nulls are similarly almost identical. Please note, this is all Jantzen 18ga inductors (including the 2.7 on the woofers!) This is measured with a big chunk of reflective material above the speaker because it's gonna be used under a TV. I have data without this. C |
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01-30-2008, 04:17 PM
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#31 (31) |
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Whoa, look at that impedance drop up high! You're going to challenge my Pio receiver! Good thing it will just be driving the center and the 8 ohm rears. I know, I know, the RS28 is really a 3ohm tweeter, not much you can do about it.
I know the scale is quite blown up, but you think there is any issue with the dip at ~2hz? Probably not much you can do about it. Based on the testing you did with plywood over the top, do you have any thoughts on what kind of bass response I'm going to get? Could you post the individual driver responses without the crossover. I'm just curious. The better crossover only has 2 additional small caps, probably only a couple $$ more. Seams silly not to do it. I doubt I'll hear a differences, but maybe. You think you heard something in the mains, so.... Seriously, it looks great! I'll need to look back at the mains crossover, but man that looks even flatter! If you think it is ready to order parts, I'll get the order in and maybe by the time my schedule is open, I'll have everything assembled (no solder) and we can listen to it. Mark me down on your calender for Feb 16th, if it is open. |
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01-30-2008, 06:23 PM
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#32 (32) |
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Wow.
What timing. I guess it helped to have a blizzard in Chicago last night.I have the same question for the dip at 2kHz. I assume we would notice this dip less than having the RS150 crossed over at a higher frequency. How would the response look, with the baffle material below the center ( verse above )? I am thinking to mount this beast above my RPTV. For the crossover, is this for shield or un-shield drivers? I assume it makes a difference. I plan to use sheilded due to my CRT based RPTV. |
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01-30-2008, 06:28 PM
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#33 (33) | |
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Quote:
Maybe a dumb question ( sorry!! ). In the circuit, there is only one RS180. Should there be two or does it not matter? Thanks |
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01-30-2008, 07:10 PM
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#34 (34) |
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The dip at 2k is baffle related I believe. Both tweet and mid have it.
This is shielded RS-180's, RS150, and unshielded RS28A. Two RS180's are wired in parallel. They're measured as one single driver which is why it's just one in the diagram. Ryan: note that a couple component values change on the mid crossover aside from the two caps between the two! The slightly more basic will map more closely with what you have in your mains though. Bass response should be respectable under the TV. My Onkyo has a 4ohm setting. Upgrade! Also can set crossover for each channel independently (to sub) which is slick.I don't know exactly how much different over vs under would be, but probably within tolerance. C |
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01-30-2008, 09:34 PM
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#35 (35) |
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$138 for the crossover? I thought I saw you say that the crossover for your speakers was $68. Why's mine so expensive.
 Drivers: Part Number Description Qty. Price Ext. Price 295-362 Dayton RS150S-8 6" Reference Shielded W .. 2 $32.14 $32.14 295-364 Dayton RS180S-8 7" Reference Shielded W .. 1 $34.96 $69.92 275-130 Dayton RS28A-4 1-1/8" Aluminum Dome Twe .. 1 $48.65 $48.65 Subtotal: $150.71 Here is what I got for the better crossover: Part Number In Stock Description Qty. Price Ext. Price Remove 004-10 Yes Dayton DNR-10 10 Ohm 10W Non-Inductive .. $1.25 $1.25 027-410 Yes Dayton DMPC-1.0 1.0uF 250V Polypropylen .. $1.06 $1.06 027-414 Yes Dayton DMPC-2.0 2.0uF 250V Polypropylen .. $1.42 $1.42 027-421 Yes Dayton DMPC-4.0 4.0uF 250V Polypropylen .. $1.92 $3.84 027-424 Yes Dayton DMPC-6.8 6.8uF 250V Polypropylen .. $2.53 $2.53 027-428 Yes Dayton DMPC-10 10uF 250V Polypropylene .. $3.75 $15.00 027-438 Yes Dayton DMPC-25 25uF 250V Polypropylene .. $6.58 $13.16 005-2.5 Yes Mills 2.5 Ohm 12W Non-Inductive Resisto .. $3.50 $3.50 255-210 Yes Jantzen 0.20mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor .. $3.26 $3.26 255-214 Yes Jantzen 0.25mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor .. $4.07 $4.07 255-238 Yes Jantzen 0.70mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor .. $6.28 $6.28 255-246 Yes Jantzen 0.90mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor .. $7.16 $7.16 255-272 Yes Jantzen 2.7mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor .. $11.49 $11.49 255-294 No Jantzen 10mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor .. $32.04 $32.04 027-443 Yes Dayton DMPC-50 50uF 250V Polypropylene .. $11.38 $11.38 027-447 Yes Dayton DMPC-100 100uF 250V Polypropylen .. $21.00 $21.00 Subtotal: $138.44 The 14uf cap and 35uf cap aren't Dayton standard values, so I built them with a 10uf cap. That dang 10mH inductor is out of stock again. Luckily, I got a spare 10uf iron core from the last time PE was out of that one. I haven't pulled the trigger yet. Giving you a day to point out any stupid mistakes I've made. I also need to make sure I got the parts to upgrade my crossovers in the mains.
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-Ryan Small Speakers Suck!
The Sietecerocero Project! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW Last edited by ---k--- : 04-20-2008 at 04:22 PM. |
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