---k---

The In-Khan-Neatos.

CJD has graciously agreed to do one more crossover design for me, so my post must start out with thanks to him. These are going to be a medium size In/On-wall 3-way. The intent is for them to be the final piece in the Khanspire line. The primary design will be a flush mounted in-wall design, however there will likely be an on-wall crossover version developed to give people a little more flexibility.

What we know so far:

Price: ~$130 for the Drivers + ~$80 crossover = $210/ EACH.
Design: In/On-Wall Sealed MTW 3-way
Tweeter: (1) RS28a
Mid: (1) RS150-8
Woofer: (1) RS180-4
Crossover Designer: CJD

Design Goals

- Overkill Surround! A 2-way MT would probably be sufficient, but who wants sufficient? I want something that all other men can point to and use as a reference point when negotiating with thier wives for something bigger than Bose.

- Used as a surround speaker in a 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 system. So, listened to without toe-in (primarily off-axis), with a big wide sweet spot.

- Intended to be crossed over to a subwoofer in the 60hz - 80hz range.

- A bit less expensive crossover than the Khans. Because it will be in-wall, the inductors can be smaller and less expensive. Because it is a surround, perfection within the crossover is not at the top of the list (CJD disagreed with this goal ).

While I'm going to be using these as a surround speaker, there is no reason they can't be used for front left, right and center speakers. They should work very well at all 7 locations.

The completion of this design probably won't be completed until May, 2009, as I should be doing other things in my life right now. However, I'm trying to take advantage of the economy and winter pricing to get a good deal on the a contractor to refinish my family room to accommodate the in-wall speakers and in-wall bookcases for my wife. So, I need to finalize the size of the speakers.

So, here we go...

EDIT: DONE!!! 5/25/09:
Finished, in wall:

Boxes next to the Khans:


Box layout:


Baffle layout:



MTW Layout:
Total = 24" High x9" Wide x 10.5" Deep (Outside dimension) = ~24.9L
Mid = 6" High x 7.5" Wide x 9" Deep (Inside dimension) = ~ 6.6L
Woofer = ~ 18L

Insides lined with 1" of PE Sonic Barrier. Empty space at bottom for the mid and woofer crossovers. Tweeter crossover hung upside down behind the tweeter. Stuff woofer chamber with 2-3 handfulls of Acoustic Stuff or to taste - they will be a little bassy without any. No roundovers on the edges, since it is to be an in-wall.

Alternatively, these will fit perfectly in a PE 1 CUFT Box. Building your own is pretty easy, because the sides, front, and back are all the same: 9.5"x24". Top, bottom, and divider between the mid and the woofer: 8"x9.5"
Optional Box sizes:
Minimum: 37" Tall x 9" Wide x 6.5" Deep = ~21.6L
Ported: 24" Tall x 9" Wide x 13" Deep = 30L, f3 = 34hz.





(Alternate crossover for stand mounting away from the wall: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpo...48&postcount=69)

Crossover photos.

First up, the tweeter:


Then only a mid that CJD and ET could love. A pair of resistors and a cap are hiding left of the Jantzen inductor.:

Finally, the woofer with it's tiny electrolytic caps. They're so small, I'm wishing I would have used 4 small ones instead of two, just to make it more respectable size.

Attached Files

bom-052509.zip (9.3 KB, 71 views)

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

---k---

Box Size?


I don't see much of a difference in the above 60hz frequency response with a box size anywhere between 12L and 40L. Therefore I don't see a reason for a big box. To fit nicely in the wall, I would like them as shallow as possible. But, for those people who build them as on-walls, I think they still need to be as small of a baffle as possible.

I'm thinking:
Total = 20"High x 9"Wide x 11" Deep (Outside dimension) =21.6L
Mid/Tweeter = 8.5"High x 7.5" Wide x 6" Deep (Inside dimension) = 6.2L
Woofer = ~13L

That seems like a pretty small enclosure for the RS180-4 with a high Qts. But I really don't want to go bigger with my box. If possible, I would like to go smaller.

Thoughts??

Attached Thumbnails

 

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

cjd

Someone once said "Small Speakers Suck!"

There's a mild rise on the low end in the smaller box sizes I'd personally prefer to do away with if I were idealizing things. 20L looks nice (I think that's how big mine are? I don't remember any more).

But it's going to be a small thing overall and in this case it's a reasonable compromise - I'd be more worried about clearance behind the driver, reflections off the rear-wall, etc. So in the end, your reasoning is sound, and the smaller box is probably the way to go.

C

---k---

Yeah, I saw the small rise in the response that starts to form when you get down to about 12L. I can easily add a little more height. 24" tall sounds good. This would be 1/2 a sheet of ply.

I'm think I'm firm with 24"x9"x10.5", unless you have some objections. That brings the total to 24.9L and makes cuts easier. The depth behind the mid and woofer will be similar to the Khans.

I attempted to run BDS to see how bad things would be. Unfortunately, I just got a new computer with Vista and Excel 2007. I'm not sure everything is compatibly. I had a heck of a time just figuring out how to install the analysis pack (mainly where the button was!) and it just doesn't seem to want to recalculate in my lifetime. I guess there isn't anything we can do about it, so it is what it is.

Any thoughts on driver offsets? I'm thinking none. Especially since I'm going 6.1 and will have an oddball in the middle.

Also, I'm assuming we want to go WMT. But, WTM would look cooler and match better.

I'm getting stir crazy, and might start cutting some wood here over the holidays. Oh why can't I do these things when it is above freezing in my garage??

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

cjd

Yeah, I'm very much wanting to finish up my surrounds now with the W5000 installed and working sooooo nicely.

If these will be near ceiling, go MTW.

---k---

Ooooh, a new HD projector? Sweet.

Yeah, these will be near the ceiling. So, MTW it is.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

---k---

Small speakers may suck, but man are they easier to build!

I had a little cabin fever today and went to Lowes and picked up a sheet of MDF. I had them cut it into 4 24" wide pieces. Then, once I got it home, it took me less than an hour to set the saw and make all the cuts for three speakers! It goes real quick when you only need 8 total cuts per speaker. It felt good to get out into the garage and be doing something. Next up routing the baffles.

What are your thoughts on driver layout? Any offset?

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

cjd

Straight up center.

---k---

Last weekend it was like 10 degrees in my garage and I was out there cutting wood. This weekend it was almost 60 degrees! Bizarre. But, it allowed me to glue a few things up. I got the baffles all cut, and the sides of the boxes glued up. So, we're making progress. These will be up at CJD's place before I know it.



I brought the boxes inside, and my wife's only comment was that they were a lot bigger than she expected. Me too!

Attached Thumbnails

   

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

---k---

BTW, for anyone playing along at home, these will fit perfectly inside a PE 1 cu ft box. Baffle is the same width. The PE box is a little shorter, but deeper, which shouldn't be a problem.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

---k---

I played a little bit in the garage this weekend. I got the shelf for the mid chamber glued in in all three boxes and the back glued on two of them. Limited number of clamps is slowing me down. All I really have left is to put the fill in and glue the baffle on.

I'm debating how much, if any bracing I want in the lower section. Its not a very big area, and I'm going to need room for the crossovers and such. The largest panel right now is 9" x 15.5". I'm tempted to call it good enough. Overkill just isn't worth it at times.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

crackyflipside

This is madness!

__________________
-Chris B

DIY

BeerParty

Any progress?

__________________
Chris

"A logical person adapts to their environment. An illogical person expects their environment to adapt to them. Thus all progress is made by illogical people."

---k---

While I would like to have made progress, it's too cold here to get much more done.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

HYPERTUNE

Right now, in Sydney Australia it is 106 degrees F. Like to swap?

Dougie085

If they are designed for in/on wall does the baffle width matter much? I mean if you put them in the wall obviously its infinite baffle then

__________________
Current setup: Clearwave Loudspeakers Dynamic 4T Mains, Harmony One, Twisted Pear Dual Mono Opus with Metronome ASRC, DAC.

---k---

For my in-wall version, the baffle won't matter at all. For the on-wall variation that hopefully CJD will provide, it will likely make a some difference. CJD can probably provide more info.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

---k---

My wife and I are already discussing May.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

tomagardner

This looks like just what I have been looking for.

I want some in-on wall right, left and center. I think I would use these for the right and left. Is the center voiced for in/on-wall also? We have a 50" flat screen that is out about 5" from the wall and I would like to place these in the wall and sticking out about 5". I would like them to visually disappear (the wall is flat black). Any problem with that? The wall is an outside wall with 6" studs (I think).

Is there any difference between placing the center above or below the screen?

Thanks in advance,
Tom

---k---

Tom,

The crossover will be the same for the left, right, and center.

My speakers will be completely in-wall with the baffle flush. CJD is a pretty accommodating guy, and he's mentioned possibilities of an on-wall and 1/2 in, 1/2 out variations for others. I'm not sure though if there is going to be a difference between on-wall and 1/2-in.

You mention that these will be going in an exterior wall. I'm not sure that is a good idea. If you're located in a warm climate, where the vapor barrier (tyvek) is installed on the inside of the insulation, you would cut through the vapor barrier, and this is a bad idea.

For the center, are you thinking vertical orientation still? Above or below the tv, should be about the same.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

tomagardner

Thanks for your reply.

I was thinking of the KhanCenter for the center. Would that match well?

I'll check the insulation again, but last time I checked it was the paper backed fibreglass batting that I thought I could just push back. Think that will work? It is pretty dry here in Denver.

Thanks again, Tom

---k---

Yeah, the Khancenter should match perfectly. At least, that is the goal. It is a lot bigger in depth due to the pair of RS180s. But, it can always be made wider and less deep.

In Denver, your vapor barrier will be on the outside face, right under the siding or whatever. So, that is good. I still don't like the idea of cutting a hole in the outside wall. Depending on how you construct it, it could create a lot of drafts, etc.

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

tomagardner

Thanks Ryan,

To prevent cutting holes in the walls, and since they are on-walls, is there any constraint on changing the width as long as the volume remains the same?

Tom

cjd

Actually, for a sealed system you can go bigger box volume without much problem. Bigger box would be closer to true on-wall. My biggest worry would be that you can't go bigger and maintain volume without going shallower - that's going to mean potential for lots of rear-wave reflections back out the cone.

Driver layout on the baffle in an in-wall is about the only constraint though.

C

tomagardner

Thanks C,

How shallow would you think is ok before getting into rearwave problems? Or any absorption that would help?

TIA, Tom

cjd

Ummm... dunno, an inch behind the magnet assembly barely allows it to breathe and still let you put fiberglass behind to manage rearwave...

tomagardner

It looks like the RS180 is 82mm deep, so about 3.3". If I make it 6" deep that would leave it 6 - 3.3 - .75(back wall thickness) = 2" .
Think that's too shallow?
Any other way around this?
Thanks, Tom

cjd

This is a case where we accept box size is one of our limitations and do what we can with it. 6" is better than 5" I think, though 5" might even work. Not sure I'd push much smaller than that, and in any case I'd be looking to work fiberglass onto the backside of the front baffle as well - you'll have a ~2900Hz standing wave (if my off-the-cuff math is right) to deal with as well as the direct reflections.

C

---k---

7" is better than 6". :p

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

titch--

Just wondering how these are coming along?

Just got 2 questions
How well will these work with the big 3way daytons?
and
These can be cut down and work with a depth of 6"OD? or is that what we are waiting to see with this build?

thanks

---k---

The weather is supposed to get up to 52 degrees here this weekend!!! So, the boxes should get done. Then it is up to CJD.

Should work really well with CJD's big RS 3 ways. I'm sure CJD is going to use the same voicing style. I would assume they'll work well with all the Dayton RS designs.

I think 6" is a bit tight. It sounds like CJD thinks 5" might even work. But if you use 1" foam in back wall, the driver will almost touch the foam. That can't be good. 7" min sounds good to me, but what do I know?


So Chris, when are you going to be ready to get the measurement equipment out?

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

titch--

Cool thanks

Looking forward to your build and how it turns out.

cheers

---k---

Its warming up a bit, so I was able to make some progress. I got insides lined with PE 1" Sonic Barrier and the baffles glues on. All that is left to do is run the flush trim bit over them and probable a very small roundover. Then, they need to make the long trip to CJD's.

You'll notice in the bottom chamber, a space on both sides without SOnic barrier. This is for the woofer and tweeter crossovers to be velcroed. In the mid chamber, the bottom didn't get Sonic Barrier. The plan is the mid crossover to sit right behind the driver.

Attached Thumbnails

   

__________________
-Ryan
My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW
My Monster Dual SS RL-P15 Ported Sub.

cjd

We'll have to do a dry run measurement after to be sure the proximity to that much iron and magnet doesn't throw the inductors.

I swear I replied here before, but... any time. I awoke with a splitting headache of I would have been making sawdust today (I never ever work with the table saw once I've had to take meds to deal with anything at all...)

C