Bloatware warning

[JonMarsh]

Hi guys,

Just a little heads up- those of you who like some of the free tools available from the FRD consortium, which are made with a combination of Excel and VBA, you may want to put off trying out Office 2007 unless there's some compelling reason in one of the new features that you've JUST GOT TO HAVE!

Because Excel 2007 runs things like Unibox in what it refers to as compatibility mode... now, that should be a clue that good things aren't happening. Imagine a 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo processor, with 2GB of RAM, that running on Office 2007 with Unibox feels like it just became a Core 0.5 Uno processor with 256 MB, that about sums it up. Besides the hoops you need to go through to convince Excel that it's OK to run unsigned unverified macros that haven't been through its compatibility testing, it's just plain old Bog slow. Bog slow saving, bog slow loading, and bog slow updating graphs. You know how you can usually enter some data in the Design page, then flip to the graph section you want and it's all there? At first I flip, and the page is blank, then in about a second or so, the graphs display. Saving the file takes about 4X longer than normal.

OK, maybe I'm just being whiny because I'm a little grumpy and tired at the end of a long Monday at work, but Geeeeeez! I feel sorry for anyone that gets roped into this on a genuinely old system (like, 2 years?), instead of a fairly respectable current machine. Oh, and yeah, this is on Wista, of course. Wista it would work better...

(OK, in all honestly, the search in Vista works great, and the GUI is pretty... OTOH, drivers are a problem, including such mundane things as RAW file converters for popular cameras 2-3 years old in their Photo program... not quite ready for prime time, but then we probably all know that, didn't we?

~Jon

[Bri]

Maybe it's slow, but at least it doesn't have a 256 column limit anymore. About time! I'm upgrading as soon as possible just for this one reason.

[jdybnis]

I ran into the same problem with Office 2007 and the FRD tools. The processing time of BDS went up about 5x vs. Office XP. I reinstalled Office XP on my system. The two versions of Office coexist fine.

[Mazeroth]

Looks like someone needs a new Mac Pro with dual Core2 Duos! :B

My brother just bought a brand new one and man, it's FAST! He does intense 3D and 2D graphics on it (he's absolutely brilliant with that stuff) and I can't get over how much faster it is than his old G4. Running native Windows is also a huge plus because now he can play all the PC games my oldest brother and I play. :T

[Paul H]

....
OK, maybe I'm just being whiny because I'm a little grumpy and tired at the end of a long Monday at work, but Geeeeeez! I feel sorry for anyone that gets roped into this on a genuinely old system (like, 2 years?), instead of a fairly respectable current machine. Oh, and yeah, this is on Wista, of course. Wista it would work better...
....


~Jon

No, you're just being whiny because you're grumpy and tired at the end of two decades of this insidious bloatware crap every time there's a new OS development from our friends at Windows

Very predictable by now ... :roll:

[JonMarsh]

Looks like someone needs a new Mac Pro with dual Core2 Duos! :B

My brother just bought a brand new one and man, it's FAST! He does intense 3D and 2D graphics on it (he's absolutely brilliant with that stuff) and I can't get over how much faster it is than his old G4. Running native Windows is also a huge plus because now he can play all the PC games my oldest brother and I play. :T

This was on a MacBook Pro... Office 2008 that will work native on my Quad Core G5 won't be out until sometime the 2nd half of this year.

If my PCB software and LspCAD didn't work so well on the MacBook Pro, I'd probably consider a Mac Pro, but not that many pieces of software are written in a way to take advantage of four cores. I'm looking forward to the relase version of Adobe Light Room, but that will be Universal also. There's not much in Windows software aside from Photoshop and a few video encoders that are multi-threaded enough.

OTOH, it would still be cool to have one, and I have reserved my second install of Maple 10 in case I get one... but that will be running under OSX, too, as does my 3D CAD, Concepts unlimited. Which runs very well on the MacBook, with full time OpenGL display.

That's another thing they've apparently buggared in Vista, CAD programs using Open GL are about 50% slower than under XP, and OpenGL isn't supported all that well for XP, IMO. M$ is trying to tell all the CAD guys to write for DirectX10, but working drivers and video cards aren't available yet!

Sounds kinda half baked, doesn't it? As in, rushed out the door before it was ready so they could say, "We shipped in 2006 like we said we would, kinda...."

Maybe I'll have to do what jdybnis suggests and put a copy of Office 2003 on, too.

[ThomasW]

This is why I'm just saying no to Vi$ta..

[Dennis H]

Huh? You mean my Office 97 is old? Whoda thunk it?

[Chris7]

It's probably worth setting up a virtual machine (Parallels on a Mac or VMWare/VirtualPC on a PC) with XP and the last version of Office just to run those apps. Having two versions of Office installed directly on the same computer seems begging for strange problems and incompatibilities.

[augerpro]

MS is saying 1GB ram minimum and 2GB recomended for Vista. Nothing has really changed except a bunch of new "security" services so this new windows is BLOAT big time. Even the average person will get this new dog and think "hey this isn't any faster then my old computer!"

[ThomasW]

Nothing has really changed except a bunch of new "security" services so this new windows is BLOAT big time.

What has changed is the DRM crap and the locks Micro$haft is putting on content

[augerpro]

What has changed is the DRM crap and the locks Micro$haft is putting on content

Exactly it Thomas. MS and the media are touting Vista's security from criminals and whatnot. When you look closer at the actual features you'll realize YOU are the criminal. The only one being protected is the MPAA and RIAA. I'll stop before I start ranting though...

[Brian Bunge]

Jon,

I don't remember what version of Office I have, but BDS runs so slow on my laptop with Windows XP that the two or three times I've tried to use it it has run so slow that I give up.

[JonMarsh]

BDS IS slow compared to the other FRD programs, it's doing a lot of calculations. I'm afraid to try running it on Office 2007, as it will probably turn into terminal sludge. I like BDS and have used it a lot, but lately I find it's faster to get things done with The Edge even though you have to model each driver set separately. It's much more responsive, but donsn't have the cabinet diffraction modeling features of BDS. What it DOES do well is modling dipole panels and FR as a function of shape and location of drivers on the panel. Spent a fair amount of time Sunday tweaking up the new arrangement with the 18" Ciare, Accuton C90, and DDS ENG-1.


Oh, and UAC IS as annoying on Vista as some say... even just creating a folder and copying files!

Here's a humorous explanation of how it works, (humorous to me), the effect is modeled accurately. It can be turned off, but then you don't have any warnings at all. It pops up even for actions YOU initiate, and doesn't seem to be aware at all that it was the user's mouse click or selection starting things (which must imply that it's possible for things to get bolixxed up remotely, of course).

UAC "demonstration"

Quicktime required.

[cjd]

If it makes you feel any better, MS has taken e-mail back a decade with the new Office as well.

Vista OpenGL performance sucks horribly (they want you to go DirectX) as about everythign else.

4GB is a minimum for power users with Vista.

C

[fjhuerta]

Wow...

I think I'll be keeping XP. Who needs all that eye candy, anyway?

[ThomasW]

Wow...

I think I'll be keeping XP. Who needs all that eye candy, anyway?

Exactly.... :T

My plan is to keep XP running until Micro$haft stops supporting it, and in the interim migrate to Apple.

[Licinius]

Wow...

I think I'll be keeping XP. Who needs all that eye candy, anyway?

+1 One, until there is a good >performance< reason to switch to Vista, I'm in absolutely no rush - and I don't think anyone else besides MS fanboys are either.

As to office 2008, everything I've read says its not much better, and completely over the top on the blingy-ness, almost nauseating.

[Brian Bunge]

This is the kind of crap that has my wife and I seriously looking at a Mac for our next PC/laptop purchase.

[Paul H]

I think I'll be looking at a Mac also ...

[WillyD]

This is the kind of crap that has my wife and I seriously looking at a Mac for our next PC/laptop purchase.

If apple would finally come out with a reasonably priced mid-tower, I'd totally get one.

After all, I grew up with Macs and my father uses a G4 now. I love OS X to death.

[Mazeroth]

If apple would finally come out with a reasonably priced mid-tower, I'd totally get one.

After all, I grew up with Macs and my father uses a G4 now. I love OS X to death.

I absolutely agree. The least expensive tower is $2499! If they would do just a regular Core2 Duo, say, an e6600 for $1299 I'd probably make the switch myself.

[Chris7]

The sweet spot for getting into Mac OS X is probably the low end, like the Mac Mini or the Macbook, which tend to be pretty price-competitive once you take into account everything like the infrared remote control.

A colleage convinced me to give OS X a try when the original Mac Mini came out, and I've been pretty impressed. I ended up getting a Macbook after that. Overall, the design decisions seem to be generally more carefully made. Using JonMarsh's example of Vista's UAC, OS X has had a similar feature for many years, but it is less user-hostile, prompting you for the administrator password only for a more carefully chosen set of configuration changes.

[Evil Twin]

There are options to it, too- as well as some certain logical conditions. You can't install ANY type of program without an administrator password- no possibility to install malware. System preferences can be locked and then require an adminstrator password to change; otherwise, those preferences are open. And there each individually controllable, or as groups.

For Unix, it's pretty user friendly.

In related news, I found a good deal on an XT1900 for my PowerMac at OWC, about $50 off. Although Mac's can run quite well with just Intel integrated graphics, as much of the OS is designed to be accelerated by GPU routines, especially in the pro apps using OpenGL, it makes a lot of sense to have a better one. It's kind of weird that Wista needs so much graphics HP to do what Macs do with much simpler hardware, such as on a Mac Mini or Macbook (have a MacBook, but not a mini). The MacBook is fine for games and even some 3D games, but you'll never want to run FEAR on it. OTOH, the standard desktop interface is completely accelerated by the GPU (as it renders in OpenGL), and hardware that Wista doesn't recommend Aero at all runs fine on OSX.

Better programming, maybe? Or better choices about how to do things, and no inclination to over segment the program or the market for profits? Theres only one desktop version of OSX, not 10 as in Vista.

[WillyD]

The sweet spot for getting into Mac OS X is probably the low end, like the Mac Mini or the Macbook, which tend to be pretty price-competitive once you take into account everything like the infrared remote control.

A colleage convinced me to give OS X a try when the original Mac Mini came out, and I've been pretty impressed. I ended up getting a Macbook after that. Overall, the design decisions seem to be generally more carefully made. Using JonMarsh's example of Vista's UAC, OS X has had a similar feature for many years, but it is less user-hostile, prompting you for the administrator password only for a more carefully chosen set of configuration changes.

Oh I certainly agree that the Mac Mini is fairly priced as far as features go, but you're pretty much stuck with what you have, and the integrated graphics is a huge no-no for me.

I've even considered going the OSx86 route, but it would be a huge headache. I'll just wait.

You better believe I won't touch Vista for some time....hell, I liked Win2000.

[joecarrow]

Solidworks, anyone?

Does anyone know how OSX handles Solidworks? That program is the main reason I'm not leaving Windows.

[Brandon B]

All these pro Mac comments by hardcore Windows guys are warming my 5-mac-owning, Apple stockholder heart.

BB

[Brian Bunge]

I've thought about getting a Mini just to get my feet wet and see how I like OS X and the like. I thought it might make for a decent little music server for the living room/HT system but don't know if I'd be seriously limiting myself by doing so. I'm a little worried about expandability, or lack thereof.

I figure if it doesn't totally meet my needs we could always move it into my step-daughter's room and ditch her Dell.

[JonMarsh]

All these pro Mac comments by hardcore Windows guys are warming my 5-mac-owning, Apple stockholder heart.

BB

Yes, it's a changing world- those who don't note it and adapt will be tomorrow's (or today's) dinosaurs.

I've been building my own PC's since 1985 (starting with an AT compatible 286 system), but in the last two years I'm almost completely converted, starting with music and photography initially on a PB17, took that into business when a PC laptop died at the end of a business trip with another trip looming the following Monday (just loaded Office up), and now it's spread like a metastisizing cancer over nearly my whole household and family... 3D Cad (Concepts Unlimited), speaker development (sometimes running in VPC emulation, sometimes native), web site creation and support (for work), training materials (from Keynote), technical and conference paperrs (from Pages), light technical illustration (EasyDraw), professional photographic workflow (LightRoom, Raw Developer), project management (Merlin), and of course, iTunes for music serving and library management. I'm playing with speaker measurement software on the MBPro.

I still have two pure PC's, one for CLIO, one for Praxis, in permanent setup.

But in two years I have become a Macoholic, and led several others down that path (daughter of course, and a few other friends and work acquaintences). Being a Macoholic means (in my case) having a QuadCore G5 Powermac at home, a Dual Core Powermac at work, a PB17 notebook (still kept that, it's a backup with Maple and most apps I use installed, and loaner to hook others in), a Black Macbook (to travel light on airplanes), a MacBook Pro for local work and light travel and PC Cad apps, and an iMac G5 music server in the living room. (which is used with a Benchmark DAC1, but on analog outputs sounds better than most sub $1K dedicated CD players- go figure!). The MacBook and MBpro are setup with BootCamp, XP on the MB, Wista on the MBpro.

I'm responsible for a PB17, two Mac mini's, an iMac G5, an intel iMac, and a MBPro 15" bought and used by others, plus my daughter's PB17.

It's a steep slippery slope once you try one, and we don't even have Leopard yet. Heck, I bought Wista just to have search on a par with Spotlight, built into Tiger OSX.

Brian, I was thinking about the Mac mini as a music server, but the iMac really is the way to go, IMO; larger built in storage, a bit more port expandability, one piece with the display- minimum cables and clutter.

[cjd]

My problem with the Macs is still hardware.

No way no how I'm going to shell out cash for features I DON'T WANT and end up paying twice as much to get a system that does what I need/want it to do.

*sigh*

So, Linux is doing pretty well. It has even less software support than Mac though, and that's the downfall. Well, it hurts the Mac some too.

I use all 3 systems at work, and find I am by far the most productive in Linux. Though I could probably take the time to set up the Mac to be nearly so, it's a shared machine so...

C

[Kevin P]

I think Linux will see an increase in popularity as more people realize just how BAD (and OVERPRICED) Vista is. Apple has its bennies too, but the hardware is a bit pricey. I can see people flocking to Linux or OSX on PC hardware though. Just try Ubuntu if you think Linux still has a long way to go. With a halfway decent 3d graphics card, Ubuntu and Beryl, you can have 3D desktop bling that makes Vista look like a wannabe, and still needs less horsepower to run smoothly.

Also, with OSX being Unix based, and Linux being a Unix clone, I can see software makers creating packages that run on both in the future. When that happens, it'll be another nail in Microsoft's coffin.

As for me, I currently have 4 PCs (one's a lappy). Two run XP, and two run Ubuntu, so I'm 50/50 right now. Next box will also run Linux, at which point MS will be outnumbered in my house. When the day comes that XP is no longer a viable option (due to it being obsolete and no longer supported), I'll switch to 100% Linux and/or OSX. I'll never touch Vista, or any of its successors, if MS continues down the path it's currently headed.

[cjd]

I have to figure out how my wife can do her photos simply and she'll be quite happy to switch to linux 100%.

When I say linux has a long way to go, I mean software support. Yeah, Gimp is cool but it's NOT Photoshop. And of course, there's the camera thing I just mentioned (as in, can we get Linux to SEE her camera, let alone make it a simple two-step process to get photos done). I think Picasa may do the trick for most everything. And a google search on "linux fujifilm f30" says Ubuntu just works. WOO!

[JonMarsh]

I think Linux will see an increase in popularity as more people realize just how BAD (and OVERPRICED) Vista is. Apple has its bennies too, but the hardware is a bit pricey. I can see people flocking to Linux or OSX on PC hardware though. Just try Ubuntu if you think Linux still has a long way to go. With a halfway decent 3d graphics card, Ubuntu and Beryl, you can have 3D desktop bling that makes Vista look like a wannabe, and still needs less horsepower to run smoothly.

Also, with OSX being Unix based, and Linux being a Unix clone, I can see software makers creating packages that run on both in the future. When that happens, it'll be another nail in Microsoft's coffin.

As for me, I currently have 4 PCs (one's a lappy). Two run XP, and two run Ubuntu, so I'm 50/50 right now. Next box will also run Linux, at which point MS will be outnumbered in my house. When the day comes that XP is no longer a viable option (due to it being obsolete and no longer supported), I'll switch to 100% Linux and/or OSX. I'll never touch Vista, or any of its successors, if MS continues down the path it's currently headed.

There are development frameworks that support Windows, OSX, and Linux for relatively easy ports between (that's what my favorite circuit simulator SIMetrix does). Then, there's secret stuff deep in the Apple labs like Yellow Box, which is a framework for windows that supports a lot of OSX functionality... as well as efforts to go the other direction.

If variety is the spice of life, I think we're entering a period that will be pretty spicey!

~Jon

[JonMarsh]

And one more thing, re LspCAD 6

Well, bottom line is I can't get the USB doingle to work; I can redo the dongle software install, removing the files first using /U to uninstall the software, then re-installing it with /B (this is doing it from a command line window), but when you plug in the dongle itself, it comes back with a message saying that a required line in the INF file is missing; driver installation for the dongle can't be completed, and of course, when you try to start LspCAD it reports "Hardware Lock Failure" and shuts down.

I have an email off to Ingemar, we'll have to see what turns up. So far, this is looking worse and worse. And there's no "compatibility" mode like there was with XP to run stuff and make the system think it was W2K or Win 98SE.

~Jon

[Wilk]

I am having the same issues with PCAD which is a circuit board layout design program. Uses a usb dongle also. The info I am getting is that Vista tries to use all usb devices with any kind of ram on them as an extra space to cache info instead of using hard drive swap. Where this is actually a cheap way to speed up a computer, it does cause real bad issues with complex dongles. I am trying to find a registry hack to turn this function on, and off, but any info on how to do this safley is very hard to find.

On the upside anyone who is seeing slow preformance on there Vista machines try pluging in a empty 2GB flash drive into it. It real does speed things up quite a bit.

[Andrew M Ward]

Exactly.... :T

My plan is to keep XP running until Micro$haft stops supporting it, and in the interim migrate to Apple.

This has been a common reaction I've heard... (probably not what MS intended)



-

[fjhuerta]

I'd never, ever buy a Mac (I know, never say never...)

To me, Macs are nice looking PCs. Overpriced. Aimed at the "fashionable" market, or people who love going against stuff.

Now that the PCs and Macs share the same architecture, I see even less of a reason to switch. I mean, they look nice and all, but I'm not willing to pay an extra just because they are "cute".

Here's an idea... Jobs, are you listening? Sell OSx86, and I'll buy it before I even think I buy Vista.

Wait.. maybe the thing is, supporting so many different pieces of hardware is too difficult for Apple. I suppose it's difficult enough for Microsoft...

Uh... I guess I'll really keep XP for a long time. And maybe keep checking if Linux becomes a real desktop alternative (highly doubtful - although I think their server offerings are simply incredible).

[cjd]

Actually, anyone THINKING about an OS switch to linux "if it gets there" may be surprised to find it pretty much IS there for them.

It's not there for people that want it installed and running and no more thinking about it, ever, even though they become riddled with spyware within 3 months... Some of the most forward-thinking distros are really getting good.

And, on the low-end (i.e. e-mail, web, and documents) a Mac isn't any more or less expensive, really, than a Vista machine. And it'll perform MUCH better on equivalent hardware.

Only at the top end does Mac become stupid expensive still. A power user can't toss $1500-2k down, they have to jump to $2.7k and wonder why all that extra crap they don't want is there...

C

[WillyD]

You criticize mac users but then you say you'd buy OS X before Vista if it was made available to non-mac users?

:roll:

And actually, the Mac Pro is competively priced if you really look at its specs.

[JonMarsh]

Fact 1. For comparable hardware, Mac's cost less than Dells. Sometimes as much as ~25% less.

Compare a Mac Pro to a Dell with the same Xeon processor, RAM, and video.

Apple doesn't build ultra low end stuff, (unless you count the Mac mini, which is very affordable, but not low end in capabilities) and they don't have 10 versions of OSX to try to wring the most money possible out of consumers by pseudo product differentiation. If Microsoft had been smart enough to make some good design decisions in Vista as Apple did years ago in OSX, (such as virtualizing graphics memory), the Vista Aero interface would run on nearly any PC with a 65 MB or better graphics card with modest 3D acceleration- including integrated solutions like the last two generations from Intel.

And all Mac's come with iLife, genuinely useful software, not crapware to delete off your harddrive as soon as you've set up.



Since I've owned or had to use at work HP's, Compaqs, Dells, and Sony's, I'm speaking from personal experience - also as someone whoe WAS building my own PC's since 1985. But no longer.

[cjd]

Jon, Dell is stupid with their pricing. Anyone with a brain would be rolling their own PC if they're truly after performance.

C

[JonMarsh]

I am having the same issues with PCAD which is a circuit board layout design program. Uses a usb dongle also. The info I am getting is that Vista tries to use all usb devices with any kind of ram on them as an extra space to cache info instead of using hard drive swap. Where this is actually a cheap way to speed up a computer, it does cause real bad issues with complex dongles. I am trying to find a registry hack to turn this function on, and off, but any info on how to do this safley is very hard to find.

On the upside anyone who is seeing slow preformance on there Vista machines try pluging in a empty 2GB flash drive into it. It real does speed things up quite a bit.

Curious- because fast hard drives are faster than most USB flash drives- my Firewire drives are probably about 4X faster in sequential writes than my Cruzer 4 GB USB2 flash drive.

[cjd]

nah, a properly put together flash will be much faster where it counts than a hard drive. Sequential is NOT where swap lives, it's all about SEEK time.

[Dennis H]

Guys, I'd love to switch to a Mac but choosing a computer is all about the apps you need to run. The stuff I need to run to make a living doesn't run on a Mac or Unix so talking about which OS is "better" doesn't mean a whole lot to me. Sure, I could have one or two computers with Windows for making money and some other ones for fun stuff but that's not gonna happen -- big PITA.

[Chris7]

Guys, I'd love to switch to a Mac but choosing a computer is all about the apps you need to run. The stuff I need to run to make a living doesn't run on a Mac or Unix so talking about which OS is "better" doesn't mean a whole lot to me. Sure, I could have one or two computers with Windows for making money and some other ones for fun stuff but that's not gonna happen -- big PITA.

Yes, it definitely depends on your applications. The nice thing about the Intel Macs is that you can run Windows apps right alongside native Mac apps using a program called Parallels. It now supports a feature called "coherence" which literally makes the Windows apps appear just like regular Mac apps. Very useful if there's only one or two apps tying a person to Windows.

I use virtual machines on my Windows computers anyway (for a variety of reasons including avoiding software conflicts -- for instance, installing BDS and Office 2000 separately from a machine where Office 2007 is also installed), so it's not really a change for me on the Mac. There is only one Windows-only app I use on a daily basis anyway (Ecco, which was killed in 1997 when MS started to bundle Outlook with Office). There are some phenomenal third-party OS X apps.

To me, Macs are nice looking PCs. Overpriced. Aimed at the "fashionable" market, or people who love going against stuff.

I was skeptical too (the advertising doesn't help -- portraying Macs as lightweights rather than emphasizing the UNIX core, things like Core Data, visual shell/app scripting (Automator), etc.), but using one changed my mind. To me, now, Macs are UNIX done right, accessible to regular people. It's worth the small price premium to me for the apps, the workflow, the reduction in hassles, the UNIX zen, having productivity features like integrated desktop search/smart folders/file tagging/etc. two years before Windows, but especially the fit and finish. The package is worth it, to me. The very strong OS X influence in Vista, down to the file/directory layout and button position in many cases, suggests that MS recognizes a good thing when they see it.

Regardless of affiliation, though, it's certainly great to finally see some real competition in the computer industry again. It stagnated too long.