802D and hi-rez music

[chuck1801]

The "downside" of the 802Ds is that they make hi-rez media really shine. So the failure of hi-rez media, SACD and DVD-A, to gain widespread acceptance is really frustrating. Even with a hi-end player like the Ayre C-5xe, CDs just don't sound as good as SACD/DVD-A and the 802Ds make the difference very obvious. For example, I have both the CD and the SACD of Steely Dan's Gaucho and both the CD and the DVD-A of Two Against Nature. No contest. I would have bought the entire Steely Dan collection on SACD or DVD-A if they had actually been released as announced.

Its nice that there is at least a niche for SACD in classical and jazz and its good that CDs sound better than ever, but I have these awesome speakers and I want more than that. B&W should be using their relationship with Abbey Road Studios to get more music out on hi-rez. For that matter, they should be going to bat for us with all the other labels too.

Maybe we should start our own letter writing campaign. Who has the e-mail and snail mail addresses for these outfits?

[jlr_1304]

I dont listen much to RB cd anymore.

Only sacd's

I'm buying as much as possible while it's still available.

[nkb]

Good point - equipment outpaces the content

The emphasis on perfecting audio equipment(and our obsession with it) has reaped serious advances but as you note, the source material has not followed.

I am about to pull the trigger on a major expenditure: 802D's, monoblock amps, etc. but unddoubtedly the weak link in the chain will not be my equipment.

[aphexist]

I dont listen much to RB cd anymore.

Only sacd's

I'm buying as much as possible while it's still available.

So essentially what you are saying is that you care more about this technology and the equipment involved than actually experiencing new music. Since SACD is such a miniscule subset of all the music released every month, you must be stuck listening to quite a few new-age "concept" albums. Which is fine; it just seems kind of backwards to me.

[jim777]

I also find that SACD's often sound better than RB, so I'm in SACD mode until I don't find anymore interesting stuff in that format (will it ever happen..). Of course, a stupid band-limited PCM transfer to DSD like Norah Jones ain't going to sound better and it won't help the SACD format live...

Why don't disc companies make at least hybrid stereo SACD's and sell that as a "standard" instead of pure RB CD's. Ah, they would loose a penny or two per disc...

Maybe this "better sound" with SACD's has something to do with disc companies knowing that this format belongs to the "audiophiles" so they apply less dynamic compression, etc.

[james_dmi]

I cant see this situation getting any better while music is still being delivered on physical mediums. Although downloaded music is currently synonymous with poor quality mp3’s there will come a time where increased bandwidth will mean we can download 24bit 192Khz lossless compression files direct to our high-end music servers. When that happens it will cost next to nothing for music companies to relapse music in a variety of different bandwidths. I'm sure most music recorded today is at least in DVD-A quality it’s just we cant get access to the master tape quality with the current distribution system.

[Karma]

HI James,
Why can't you see the situation getting better? Technology continues to advance at light speed.

Sparky

[RNKC]

I don't own an SACD nor a DVD-A player simply because there isn't enough software out there for my tastes. I find it extremely difficult to find the source material on sale, and I live in a large city that offers pretty everything money can buy.

Having said that, I'm rather hoping that once the Blu-Ray / HD-DVD battle has been won, CDs will become a thing of the past and the record companies will release and re-release recordings in new "HD" format. In the meantime, I personally view SACD & DVD-A as stepping stones to that new format.

[Kal Rubinson]

I find it extremely difficult to find the source material on sale, and I live in a large city that offers pretty everything money can buy.

And you probably never will find it there.

I live in a big city, too, and buying hi-rez recordings locally is nearly impossible. The hi-rez market, by its nature, will always be a relatively small niche market and will not pay for its floor space in a store. This will be the case regardless of the medium, so don't say it will change.

The internet market is the ONLY way to get a selection.

Kal

[james_dmi]

HI James,
Why can't you see the situation getting better? Technology continues to advance at light speed.

Sparky

Hi Karma,

The situation I was referring to was the general availability of new music in above CD-Quality format, not in the technology behind these formats. I find it hard enough finding what I'm looking for on CD let alone on SACD or DVD-A. Because record companies don’t really care that much about the small market of audiophile buyers they won’t bother to re-release music in a format that most people wont buy. In my scenario I’m looking forward to a time where record companies no longer have to worry about extra costs and therefore will be more likely to offer music in high res.

One thing is for sure both SACD and DVD-A have failed to gain broad market acceptance and now manufactures like sony will be quietly dropping their SACD marketing and going all out on Blue Ray and what ever audio derivative that has its not going to get any better. DVD-A is no better and is soon to be replaced by DVD-HD-A or whatever they are going to call that. We will then have another format war which will mostly be fought in the Video realm. I don’t see much attention being paid to the audio side of things and therefore we will just get another repeat of the current situation.

What we really need is something that offers something worthwhile to the average consumer. Above CD quality output potential does not do this and is in-audible on the average persons system. Now music downloading does offer something to these consumers in that they can get instant access to music and all the other benefits like shelves getting filled up with countless CD’s. Now all that needs to happen is for high end manufactures to wake up and stop wasting R&D money on doomed formats such as SACD and DVD-A and instead build top quality Hard Disk based players with high res DACs and all the other considerations that are required to make a high end player. Then the music companies can offer music in compressed, CD quality and above CD Quality formats. They will want to have DRM in these studio quality downloads to stop piracy so we therefore need a proper standard for the players and file formats to adhere to. Unfortunately this is the last thing companies like sony want to happen they want to lock us in to proprietary physical formats so they can not only get royalties from the software and hardware but also so that they can control the distribution of music. Here they make huge sums of money which they can then waste developing acts that people need to be programmed through even more wasteful marketing before they actually buy them. If all music was downloaded then anyone could set up a music company and god forbid they artists themselves may be allowed to sell their own music!

Sorry for going completely off tangent and ranting on about the music industry. I answered Karmas question in the first sentence the rest was just me brain dumping.

[jlr_1304]

Well, we are lucky in the MOntreal region with a lot of music stores displaying seperate displays with all SACD/DVD-A in the same rack.

[Kal Rubinson]

Well, we are lucky in the MOntreal region with a lot of music stores displaying seperate displays with all SACD/DVD-A in the same rack.

Sure but how big and how wide is the selection?

Kal

[jim777]

I'm in Canada so I looked for something up here and I found grooveyard.ca - you can search for SACD's only (click music then SACD). They have quite a big (huge!) selection. The guy even says to e-mail him if he is missing something..

I don't think that many stores stock as much SACD's as them.

So that goes with what Kal said: "The internet market is the ONLY way to get a selection."

BTW I have no realtionship with them. I'm just a happy customer.

[kchen]

I know a web site sells a lot of SACD and some great CDs that you won't find at other locations. The shipping is not expensive. Their web site is www.adagioplus.com.

I have no realtionship with them. I just like to see more people buy SACD. It's the only way to keep the format survive.


Kevin

[jlr_1304]

Sure but how big and how wide is the selection?

Kal

Good question. I didnt really count, but depending of the store, must be between couple of 100's to near a thousand, but it would have to be verified.

It's better than 0 anyway.

[Kal Rubinson]

Good question. I didnt really count, but depending of the store, must be between couple of 100's to near a thousand, but it would have to be verified.
It's better than 0 anyway.

Mebbe it's a question of perspective. I have more than that and rarely can find anything locally that I do not have and yet want.

Kal

[jlr_1304]

As a contributor, you must have all there is :B

I have about 40 sacd's, so the selection is always huge for me in a store.

[Kal Rubinson]

As a contributor, you must have all there is :B

Not all, yet. :B OTOH, it is hard to keep up with them. I say this not as a boast but to point out that, despite all the bad news and naysaying, the small labels are still cranking them out.

Kal

[jlr_1304]

Kal, do you know this particular one :

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal, do you know this particular one :

Nope but I just asked for a copy. Thanks.

Kal

[jlr_1304]

Let me know. It's supposed to have great dynamic range.

[RNKC]

Well I just did a quick search on grooveyard.ca and adagioplus.com. I listen to classical music but on between the 2 sites, all I could find in my brief search was 3 CDs. That's pretty representative of my SACD searches thus far.

I would *love* to buy SACD or DVD-A, but I basically can't because there's nothing out there to buy. Sigh.

[Kal Rubinson]

Well I just did a quick search on grooveyard.ca and adagioplus.com. I listen to classical music but on between the 2 sites, all I could find in my brief search was 3 CDs. That's pretty representative of my SACD searches thus far.

I would *love* to buy SACD or DVD-A, but I basically can't because there's nothing out there to buy. Sigh.

Are you saying that all you can find are 3 classical SACDs? I saw dozens more on a quick scan of adagioplus. Try www.SA-CD.net. Even try Amazon. There are thousands!!

Kal

[james_dmi]

Had a quick look through SA-CD.net. Things seem to be a bit better then last time I looked at the range of SACD's (there were one or two that I would buy) but its still mostly old and or very obvious big releases only. It’s not like your going to discover anything new. 402 in the rock/pop section is about what a Woolworths would stock CD wise and you wouldn’t go there to find new music....

[RNKC]

Update - I cruised through SA-CD.net (thanks for the link!) and found a fair number of SACD. Then I went to amazon.ca and found 239 classical SACDs.

This looks like an expensive proposition. Average price of an SACD is $21 (Canadian). Ayre C5xe universal player lists at $6000 US. The audiophile in me is urging me to go forward and go SACD. The realist is telling me to hold off since SACD is so obviously niche.

So once again, I find myself torn. Take the SACD plunge or don't? Sigh. This hobby kills me.

As an aside - I really really hope this HD-DVD / Blu-Ray battle is over quick and that the music folks jump on the HD bandwagon.

[jim777]

Update - I cruised through SA-CD.net (thanks for the link!) and found a fair number of SACD. Then I went to amazon.ca and found 239 classical SACDs.

This looks like an expensive proposition. Average price of an SACD is $21 (Canadian). Ayre C5xe universal player lists at $6000 US. The audiophile in me is urging me to go forward and go SACD. The realist is telling me to hold off since SACD is so obviously niche.

So once again, I find myself torn. Take the SACD plunge or don't? Sigh. This hobby kills me.

As an aside - I really really hope this HD-DVD / Blu-Ray battle is over quick and that the music folks jump on the HD bandwagon.

Maybe some stereo freaks like me don't want any video near their audio at all

I got in the SACD bandwagon, but only because the new CD player I got had it (I don't think that it was a factor in my decision). Most SACD's sound great though. Might need at least Diamonds to see a huge difference though.

[Kal Rubinson]

Had a quick look through SA-CD.net. Things seem to be a bit better then last time I looked at the range of SACD's (there were one or two that I would buy) but its still mostly old and or very obvious big releases only. It’s not like your going to discover anything new. 402 in the rock/pop section is about what a Woolworths would stock CD wise and you wouldn’t go there to find new music....

Depends on what you like. I have about 1500 SACDs, the vast majority of them are new issues and I discover new music all the time. More every day.
Also, over 95% of them are multichannel, an important feature for me.

Kal

[jim777]

Also, over 95% of them are multichannel, an important feature for me.

I'm stereo only and I wonder if sometimes if the SACD stereo track's sound quality is inferiour to the multichannel track. Not to name the infamous Norah Jones SACD...

[Kal Rubinson]

I'm stereo only and I wonder if sometimes if the SACD stereo track's sound quality is inferiour to the multichannel track. Not to name the infamous Norah Jones SACD...

I gave that one away rapidly. A friend of mine likes it. :rofl:

Kal

[jlr_1304]

On another note (no pun) do you people like single layer better the multi-layer ? I do find the first sony (2000-2001) SL to sound more solid, more weight in the instruments.

[jim777]

I gave that one away rapidly. A friend of mine likes it

Is he still a friend :rofl:

[Kal Rubinson]

On another note (no pun) do you people like single layer better the multi-layer ? I do find the first sony (2000-2001) SL to sound more solid, more weight in the instruments.

Can you tell me how you have done this comparison? What releases with the same mastering can be heard on both single-layer and multi-layer discs?

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

Is he still a friend :rofl:

Apparently. The price was right. :P

Kal

[jlr_1304]

There is no comparaison. I'm just wondering if you noticed that SL are sounding different than ML. Difficult to explain.

[Kal Rubinson]

All I can say is that I have never taken note of whether the disc is one or the other as it has never been an issue for me. What called it to your attention?

Kal

[jlr_1304]

Bass and instruments have more weight.

[Indytown]

All I can say is that I have never taken note of whether the disc is one or the other as it has never been an issue for me. What called it to your attention?

Kal

Kal,

What is your prefered player for multi-channel disks and why?

Indy

[Kal Rubinson]

Bass and instruments have more weight.

I heard you. I just find it hard to understand how you made the distinction with discs of different program material.

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal,
What is your prefered player for multi-channel disks and why?
Indy

Depends. The BelCanto PL-1A 9 (and Sony XA9000ES) in the NY system and the Sim Orbiter in CT. Different rooms, amps and speakers.

Kal

[jim777]

Depends. The BelCanto PL-1A 9 (and Sony XA9000ES) in the NY system and the Sim Orbiter in CT. Different rooms, amps and speakers.

Kal

Well for stereo SACD I hope you will get to try mac's new MCD201

[Kal Rubinson]

Well for stereo SACD I hope you will get to try mac's new MCD201

Why would I want stereo when I do multichannel? :T

Kal

[jim777]

Why would I want stereo when I do multichannel? :T

Kal

Haha, you must be evil :twisted:

Why - just to know how stereo can sound good :B

[Kal Rubinson]

Haha, you must be evil :twisted:

Why - just to know how stereo can sound good :B

I do but, imho, while there's nothing that stereo can do that MCH cannot do better, the reverse is not supportable. Still, I do listen to stereo A LOT simply because so much music is not (yet) available in MCH.

The way it works for me is that I have one system in my house that was set up from the beginning for MCH and the only discs I have in that house are MCH. The other system in the apartment was originally a stereo system but has only recently been expanded to MCH. So, in the former, I listen only to MCH and in the latter, I listen mostly to stereo...........but that is changing. :W

Kal

[sikoniko]

when do we get to see pics of your B&W system Kal?

[Kal Rubinson]

when do we get to see pics of your B&W system Kal?

If I ever get around to it, they will be posted in the gallery at the Stereophile forums. I do have some allegiance to it. 8)

Kal