B&W XT series speakers + Receiver / Amp - Help for a newbie

[rwong97]

Hi all,

Am a complete newbie to the world of audiophiles but am looking to get started... Have recently decided to upgrade from a crap set of Sony speakers / DVD combo to a set of B&W XT4, XT2s, XTC and a PV1 and a new amplifier / receiver + a DVD player.

On the amp / receiver, I was originally looking at the Denon 4306 - however, I got the general sense in the forums that I've read that the XT speakers are a bit hard to drive and that a Rotel 1067 works better. But I do still like the bells and whistles of the Denon (multiple HDMI inputs, ethernet connectivty, etc) and some other forums seem to think that this particular Rotel isn't much better. Been also reading up on getting separates for the speakers and the Rotel 1068 seems like a good pick for its raw power. I know speakers in the same set-up should generally come from the same family - is this true for amps / receivers as well? If I had the cash, would it make sense to get the Denon for its receiver functions AND a Rotel 1068? Not even sure if they can work together? sorry if this is a dumb question! ops:

Also - Any recommendations for a good DVD player to go with this setup? Given how much I might end up spending on the speakers, may not want to get the BEST DVD player out there...

Thanks in advance for any advice on this.

[akhter]

Hi all,

Am a complete newbie to the world of audiophiles but am looking to get started... Have recently decided to upgrade from a crap set of Sony speakers / DVD combo to a set of B&W XT4, XT2s, XTC and a PV1 and a new amplifier / receiver + a DVD player.

On the amp / receiver, I was originally looking at the Denon 4306 - however, I got the general sense in the forums that I've read that the XT speakers are a bit hard to drive and that a Rotel 1067 works better. But I do still like the bells and whistles of the Denon (multiple HDMI inputs, ethernet connectivty, etc) and some other forums seem to think that this particular Rotel isn't much better. Been also reading up on getting separates for the speakers and the Rotel 1068 seems like a good pick for its raw power. I know speakers in the same set-up should generally come from the same family - is this true for amps / receivers as well? If I had the cash, would it make sense to get the Denon for its receiver functions AND a Rotel 1068? Not even sure if they can work together? sorry if this is a dumb question! ops:

Also - Any recommendations for a good DVD player to go with this setup? Given how much I might end up spending on the speakers, may not want to get the BEST DVD player out there...

Thanks in advance for any advice on this.

Technically what you are suggesting will work--you can hook up a Rotel or any power amp to any high end reciever (assuming they have pre-outs). I believe the all 3xxx and up Denons do have pre-outs and that will work fine. The question that is tricky is will you be getting the full benefit of separates? Probably not. Separates sound better than integrated for several reasons, one of which the pre-amp and the amp sections are on different transformers. You will only get one side of the benefit, ie the amp is on a separate transfer, but the pre-amp in your case will have all the noise of a full blown receiver. I also happen to think that the pre-amp is a more important section of the overall chain so going with the Denon over Rotel will kind of defeat that purpose.

I understand your situation--one of my friends got the same Denon 4306 to drive his 804S speakers becuase he really liked the ethernet connectivity/internet Radio and iPod features of the Denon, and to him the Denon sounded 'good enough'. I would advise against getting the Rotel amps becuase you will get very little benefit. To get out of the Denon sound and get Rotel quality sound (or better) you need a better pre-section.

[rwong97]

Thanks akhter for the quick response!

Are there any pre-amps that you would recommend which has the same quality as the Rotel and the extra bells and whistles of the Denon?

[marano]

Also - Any recommendations for a good DVD player to go with this setup? Given how much I might end up spending on the speakers, may not want to get the BEST DVD player out there...

Thanks in advance for any advice on this.

Have you looked at the Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player? You can find it for under $400 and it is a excellent upconverting DVD Player and CD Player plus you can play High Definition DVD's on it to boot.

[rwong97]

Marano - Thanks - but I saw some pretty bad reviews of the first-gen HD-DVD players (including the Toshiba one you mentioned). Not to mention that these do not appear to have been rolled out in Hong Kong (or at least widely available) where I live yet.

[WI Rotel]

Hi all,

Am a complete newbie to the world of audiophiles but am looking to get started... Have recently decided to upgrade from a crap set of Sony speakers / DVD combo to a set of B&W XT4, XT2s, XTC and a PV1 and a new amplifier / receiver + a DVD player.

On the amp / receiver, I was originally looking at the Denon 4306 - however, I got the general sense in the forums that I've read that the XT speakers are a bit hard to drive and that a Rotel 1067 works better. But I do still like the bells and whistles of the Denon (multiple HDMI inputs, ethernet connectivty, etc) and some other forums seem to think that this particular Rotel isn't much better. Been also reading up on getting separates for the speakers and the Rotel 1068 seems like a good pick for its raw power. I know speakers in the same set-up should generally come from the same family - is this true for amps / receivers as well? If I had the cash, would it make sense to get the Denon for its receiver functions AND a Rotel 1068? Not even sure if they can work together? sorry if this is a dumb question! ops:

Also - Any recommendations for a good DVD player to go with this setup? Given how much I might end up spending on the speakers, may not want to get the BEST DVD player out there...

Thanks in advance for any advice on this.

The 1067 is not a good match, as I already found out for the same system. It simply doesn't have the current to run this very low efficiency system. Even moderate volume levels will make the very noisy internal fan go off after a few minutes, forget about loud music levels it will simply trip the protection circuits. Go with a power amp an RMB 1075 or 1095. The RSP 1068 prepro is cheap and works great. A 1075 with 1068 will be slightly more expensive than most receivers but it will save you the effort of dragging the receiver back to the dealer when you find out that it doesnt work :E with your shiny new speakers. Again this is from personal expirience, do not use a 1067 reciever.
Another point to ponder is room size if your room is large or "dead" a second PV1 may be in order. Buy 1, set the whole thing up and test. If you feel "bass light" A second PV1 will easily fix it. Although the PV1 is completely tranparent, beautifully musical, and has nice extension, it doesn't have top flight output.
As for a DVD player your choice is as good as mine, if you use the optical audio option the musicality of the DVD is moot (its all happening in the PRE) same thing the video. The video portion is crucial, of course, but that portion is pretty standard in the business so I would look more for decent construction more than anything else, stay awy from the cheapos but don't spend an arm an a leg, personally I use an Xbox 360 with fantastic results!

Happy listening, the system is spectacular!

Here's my pics of the exact same sytem you are planning! Cheers

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=274474&postcount=893

[rwong97]

Thanks WI Rotel

Seems like all the fancy functions only belong to the lesser-sounding consumer oriented receivers...

[akhter]

Thanks akhter for the quick response!

Are there any pre-amps that you would recommend which has the same quality as the Rotel and the extra bells and whistles of the Denon?

Specifically which features are must haves for you?

[akhter]

Thanks WI Rotel

Seems like all the fancy functions only belong to the lesser-sounding consumer oriented receivers...

The way I look at it...all the fancy features can be group in to 3 catagories:

1) Features that make it sound good: Like room correction, many dsp modes--Most hi end doesn't bother with these because they already sound good

2) Video related: HDMI switching/upconversion: Almost all brands have these now, although only in hi-end models. Mid-priced consumer models are starting to get these.

3) Everything Else: IPod/ethernet connectivity, wifi, mp3, internet radio, fancy lcd remote. All these can be bought for a couple of hundred dollars. Infact these things get obselete faster than a receiver, so its probably better to get them separately anyways, so that they can be replaced. Also, things that can be added for 100-200 dollars, shouldn't make that big an impact on a purchase thats is 5000-10000 dollars.

[rwong97]

1) Agreed
2) Apparently the Rotels don't. Still using component video as far as I can tell
3) Agreed - would be nice to get it built-in but this isn't a deal-killer for me.

What's another brand of receiver I could consider with better / more updated video functionality and similar sound quality? Thanks again all.

[WI Rotel]

The way I look at it...all the fancy features can be group in to 3 catagories:

1) Features that make it sound good: Like room correction, many dsp modes--Most hi end doesn't bother with these because they already sound good

2) Video related: HDMI switching/upconversion: Almost all brands have these now, although only in hi-end models. Mid-priced consumer models are starting to get these.

3) Everything Else: IPod/ethernet connectivity, wifi, mp3, internet radio, fancy lcd remote. All these can be bought for a couple of hundred dollars. Infact these things get obselete faster than a receiver, so its probably better to get them separately anyways, so that they can be replaced. Also, things that can be added for 100-200 dollars, shouldn't make that big an impact on a purchase thats is 5000-10000 dollars.

I wouldn't worry about HDMI It probably will be a flop just as DVI. At this time the only reason for a HDMI connection is a 1080P DVD player, for which of course you need a 1080P TV. My impression is that HDDVD will be a flash in the pan, specifically, because HD movies will be available for download in the not too distant future, thus making HDDVD players obsolete even before they figure out who will be the winner of the format wars! Furthermore, component video can display any HD resolution the HDMI simply is a connector that combines component video and audio. One thing that pisses me off is, that even given that fact, manufacturers of DVD players make the high def signal available only available through the HDMI. That is a crock simply to force to change equipment.

[B&W 700 Guy]

As I understand HDMI 1.3 will be the only way too deliver the bandwidth needed for Dolby Digital HD/DTS HD and the other Lossless audio formats with High resolution Video with out the copyright video protection issues.

I have never been that impressed with DVD Players with Decoders in them.

[WI Rotel]

As I understand HDMI 1.3 will be the only way too deliver the bandwidth needed for Dolby Digital HD/DTS HD and the other Lossless audio formats with High resolution Video with out the copyright video protection issues.

I have never been that impressed with DVD Players with Decoders in them.

I was reading the rotel 1092 DVD manual and it does mention the protection issue, again its not a component video conection issue, its a manufacturers control issue, component video has bandwith to spare that is why TV HD 720p or 1080i uses component connections! But you are correct as far as DVD is concerned, however, this is only an issue with DVD, thus the only HDMI connection you would ever require is from the DVD to the TV thus making a preamp with such a connection nice but far from necessary. Again, I really don't see a big future for HDDVD, since that type of content will soon be downloadable thus making the disc unnecessary! The market is very volatile now with new formats connections and so on. It will take a few years to shake out, thus I see little need to not buy a component just because it doesn't have the latest input plug which may or may not make any difference in the foreseeable future. The biggest example is DVI, that was supposed to be THE connection, 2 years later its being replaced by a new and improved format (HDMI) which in my expirience is not being very succesfull since I have seen plenty of instances where components using it fail to "connect" to each other! Component video has been around for decades now works great and is simple I would simply wait to see a few years to see what shakes out in digital video before splurging 10K on a TV and DVD, simply because its the latest and "greatest". :W

[B&W 700 Guy]

Again, I really don't see a big future for HDDVD, since that type of content will soon be downloadable thus making the disc unnecessary!

Do you think that HD Movies with the full audio bandwidth will be released as an easy downloadable file? Over Paramount, Sony, Warner and ect.

The Motion Picture companies are going to protect their investment. I believe that if you want to own movies in the future, it will be on HD DVD, Blueray, or another disc technology. You will be able to download a lower resolution version of the movie, but, not the full content on to you Hard Drive. Furthermore, HDMI 1.3 will probably be supported by the PC industry also.

If I purchase a movie, I want the widest bandwidth version avalible :T

[akhter]

1) Agreed
2) Apparently the Rotels don't. Still using component video as far as I can tell
3) Agreed - would be nice to get it built-in but this isn't a deal-killer for me.

What's another brand of receiver I could consider with better / more updated video functionality and similar sound quality? Thanks again all.

I am a little biased towards Arcam. Look at AVR300 or AVR350 (If you need hdmi)

[rwong97]

Has anyone tried the Arcam AVR-350 with the B&W XT speakers? Curious to see if they worked out well. Output is rated at 100W - not sure if they are sufficient for the XT4s, given their low efficiency?

Also, called up a dealer in Hong Kong and they told me that the XTs had been recalled - apparently some issue with people getting cut by the edges? couldn't find that on the web... mmm strange.

[WI Rotel]

Has anyone tried the Arcam AVR-350 with the B&W XT speakers? Curious to see if they worked out well. Output is rated at 100W - not sure if they are sufficient for the XT4s, given their low efficiency?

Also, called up a dealer in Hong Kong and they told me that the XTs had been recalled - apparently some issue with people getting cut by the edges? couldn't find that on the web... mmm strange.

Sounds like bull to me! The only cutting edge on my XT's is the sound :W

[WI Rotel]

Has anyone tried the Arcam AVR-350 with the B&W XT speakers? Curious to see if they worked out well. Output is rated at 100W - not sure if they are sufficient for the XT4s, given their low efficiency?

Also, called up a dealer in Hong Kong and they told me that the XTs had been recalled - apparently some issue with people getting cut by the edges? couldn't find that on the web... mmm strange.

100 watts is not enough for the XT4, the other XT's are not more efficient either, the xt2's are 85db! Although I've read that the XT4's 86 is actually optimistic. TO drive the XT's you need juice, its not so much RMS but the fact that they easily fall below 4 ohms impedance on a regular basis.

[Kclman]

I have demoed the arcam av350 with the XT4s and the XTC, it is way underpowered, really not worth bothering with, however I settled on the XTs with the arcam AVP700 and P1000 combo, sounds awesome, get a demo if you can, if your budget streches the av9 and p7 are even better (bit too pricy for me).

Where are you shopping for these in HK?

The other problem with the Xts are that they are not bi-ampable, no idea why!

[Kclman]

On the DVD player front are you wanting to get good CD playback as well?

[rwong97]

Just visited the B&W showroom in Central today. XTs are out of stock and backordered - will be at least another month before new ones arrive apparently.

Kclman - are you in HK? Can you recommend a dealer? Appears that the MSRP for the XTs in Hong Kong is higher than in the US...

[WI Rotel]

I have demoed the arcam av350 with the XT4s and the XTC, it is way underpowered, really not worth bothering with, however I settled on the XTs with the arcam AVP700 and P1000 combo, sounds awesome, get a demo if you can, if your budget streches the av9 and p7 are even better (bit too pricy for me).

Where are you shopping for these in HK?

The other problem with the Xts are that they are not bi-ampable, no idea why!

Why should they? Bi amplifying is simply nonsense in this range. Just use a more powerful amp! Since the XT4 essentially requires a sub for HT you are in essence biamplifying them already. Since I have 2 PV's I simply set my XT4 to small and the crossover at 60hz, the results are astonishing! That frees the the XT4 woofers to do what they do best serve as higher octave bass radiators (where they work brilliantly) instead of trying to struggle to reproduce deep bass (which they can do). This setting works wonders for the overall system dynamics since this is also where the PV's do their best. It also affects the midrange very positively since the size of the XT woofers is really midrange size thus serves to warm those frequencies significantly. People think I'm kidding but the truth is that an XT system with 2 PV's has little envy from an 802 based system for less than just the 802 mains!. IMO, the trump is the PV1's remarkably clean, dynamic and accurate bass, the transient response from those little spheres is just outrageous. Remember with 2 PV's have the combined area of a 16in driver :E ! As for amplification simply do the math, one RMB 1095 plus 2 PV1's= 2 Kwatts RMS :jawdrop:

[B&W 700 Guy]

People think I'm kidding but the truth is that an XT system with 2 PV's has little envy from an 802 based system for less than just the 802 mains!

Are you saying the XT mains w/sub are just as good as the 802's :rofl:

[WI Rotel]

People think I'm kidding but the truth is that an XT system with 2 PV's has little envy from an 802 based system for less than just the 802 mains!

Are you saying the XT mains w/sub are just as good as the 802's :rofl:

Without a doubt. Actually, not as good they are better :yeah: The bass response, extension and clarity of 2 PV1's is significantly superior than that of the 802. The XT's high frequency dispersion is actually the best of any BW model, the only advantage of the 802 is midrange accuracy and warmth which are well remedied by setting the XT4 to small in the pre/pro. Hearing is believing. If you haven't heard it your comment is entirely superfluos ;zx

[B&W 700 Guy]

Without a doubt. Actually, not as good they are better :yeah: The bass response, extension and clarity of 2 PV1's is significantly superior than that of the 802. The XT's high frequency dispersion is actually the best of any BW model, the only advantage of the 802 is midrange accuracy and warmth which are well remedied by setting the XT4 to small in the pre/pro. Hearing is believing. If you haven't heard it your comment is entirely superfluos ;zx

Well if that is true, pass me the Crack Pipe.

I Listen to them at Ken Cranes in Westminster, CA. And they sounded nice for an Aluminum Speaker. Thoughs are like the DefTech Mentos, but better! :T

[Kclman]

I agree the bass is lovely and tight from the PV1s, but I have a large room and its simple physics, the boxes (spheres) are too small, there are better subs for the money, granted they don't look as good but boy can they shift some air. Especially when it comes to the use in an HT setup.

I live in HK for a few months in the winter and to be honest I don't know of any dealers bar the shop in central.

[WI Rotel]

I agree the bass is lovely and tight from the PV1s, but I have a large room and its simple physics, the boxes (spheres) are too small, there are better subs for the money, granted they don't look as good but boy can they shift some air. Especially when it comes to the use in an HT setup.

I live in HK for a few months in the winter and to be honest I don't know of any dealers bar the shop in central.

I will not argue that the PV is expensive and that they are limited in power, but trust me 2 PV's will rip any single sub regardless of price or power in every performance parameter and sound more musical to boot. Our family/video room is 6400 cuft, the pair easily fill that space up without a sweat, matter-of-factedly, the bass output of 2 is such that it pretty much fills up our upstairs living area too! Don't take me wrong I know that $3200 is a steep price for subs, but I can guarantee you will never regret it!

[Kclman]

Just had a demo with some naim kit, the av2, nap175, nap200. This pre/pro and power amp combo gave the xt4s what they deserve. I myself and going to invest in this when I have the cash. Not only was the HT side dynamic and fuller then both the rotel and arcam pre/power combos I have heard before, but in 2 channel stereo, it made the XT4s sing. I never truly realised how good they were till I heard them with the Naim combo. I can not recommend it strongly enough. If you are in to watching films, forget the XT2s and get some M&K tripoles (k4) They provide a fuller soundscape to the rear.

Honestly if you can find the space for it as well I recoment the svs pb12plus/2 or the ultra/2. They will blow the socks off the PV1.

[Nolan B]

trust me 2 PV's will rip any single sub regardless of price or power

No Offence but you make some pretty absolute statements, and obviously have not spent time auditioning many other sub solutions. Dont take offense, I have a PV1 and love it, but 1 or even two of them would not equal a Valodyne DD15, or even an REL B1. One reason is that having 10 PV1s still wouldn't produce levels as low as 1 Valodyne DD 15. In fact the Valodyne produces levels so low you cant even hear them.

2 PV1s are great no question, but there is now way that two are better then any single one "regardless of price or power". There are units that turn your entire house litterally into a subwoofer with the use of fans and compresion units in the attic of your house.

what about the Bang & Olufson BEO Lab 1? That one sub has four 10" dirvers like 2 PV1s, has twice the power of a PV1, not to mention Bang & Olufson invented the ICE power technology used in the PV (pressure vessel) 1 and sold the technology to B&W.

The purpose of the post is not to attack you, and please dont take this post as my opinion.

[WI Rotel]

No Offence but you make some pretty absolute statements, and obviously have not spent time auditioning many other sub solutions. Dont take offense, I have a PV1 and love it, but 1 or even two of them would not equal a Valodyne DD15, or even an REL B1. One reason is that having 10 PV1s still wouldn't produce levels as low as 1 Valodyne DD 15. In fact the Valodyne produces levels so low you cant even hear them.

2 PV1s are great no question, but there is now way that two are better then any single one "regardless of price or power". There are units that turn your entire house litterally into a subwoofer with the use of fans and compresion units in the attic of your house.

what about the Bang & Olufson BEO Lab 1? That one sub has four 10" dirvers like 2 PV1s, has twice the power of a PV1, not to mention Bang & Olufson invented the ICE power technology used in the PV (pressure vessel) 1 and sold the technology to B&W.

The purpose of the post is not to attack you, and please dont take this post as my opinion.

Your comparing A BO sub with a PV1 :crazy: Its not about power or number of drivers although you can use those comparisons amongst BW's you cannot use it across brands. The PV1 is unique in that its the only low frequency radiator (or speaker) in the market that can boast a truly vibrationless enclosure regardless of power and frequency note that no one else can make that claim. As to how low it can go, 18Hz (at -6db) is infrasonic. Using 2 subs doubles the sound pressure, although the PV1 output is lower than most large subs, none has twice the output! If you have a PV1 I behoove you to give it a try! 2 will blow you away, no sub comes close to the clean sound of the PV1, yes some go lower (slightly) but in most the audibility of the lower frequencies is not due to better bass its due to coloration and rumble which the PV1 lacks, its probably the least "colored" sound transducer ever made!

[akhter]

People think I'm kidding but the truth is that an XT system with 2 PV's has little envy from an 802 based system for less than just the 802 mains!

I heard full XT/Rotel system at my dealer although with one PV sub. The bass was indeed very good, but the mids and high were no where near as transparent and smooth as my own N804 (mind you they were still very good). My N804+Velo DD12+Arcam AVR300 combo was on a different league than that system. Then I heard a B&W 803D driven by a pair of Jeff Rowland monoblocks (no sub) felt truely humbled. They also had a 802D+Classe setup, but I didn't have the heart to listen to it. BTW I always take my own CD (Eagles-Hell Freezes Over & Pink Floyd-Division Bell) to audition systems as I know how that sounds in my system.

I like the XT series (I use the XTC center in my system). I am not trying to put you down, but XT+any number of PV1 cannot touch a reasonably put together any Nautilus or 800 series system.

[WI Rotel]

I heard full XT/Rotel system at my dealer although with one PV sub. The bass was indeed very good, but the mids and high were no where near as transparent and smooth as my own N804 (mind you they were still very good). My N804+Velo DD12+Arcam AVR300 combo was on a different league than that system. Then I heard a B&W 803D driven by a pair of Jeff Rowland monoblocks (no sub) felt truely humbled. They also had a 802D+Classe setup, but I didn't have the heart to listen to it. BTW I always take my own CD (Eagles-Hell Freezes Over & Pink Floyd-Division Bell) to audition systems as I know how that sounds in my system.

I like the XT series (I use the XTC center in my system). I am not trying to put you down, but XT+any number of PV1 cannot touch a reasonably put together any Nautilus or 800 series system.

I wonder what was driving it? You need a very strong amp to make them sing. No receiver can do them justice. I just finished listening to some old styx on them and its like hearing entirely different music, half of the instruments were not there before! Dont forget, they have seven tweeters, the difference between the seven and 8 is not highs its lower mirange and bass.